"The Making of a Chaplain": Jim Kirkland's Calling & Mission

In this episode of 'Wrong to Strong Chicago,' host Omar Calvillo interviews Jim Kirkland, the Executive Director of Christian Chaplains and Coaching. Jim shares his personal journey, including a transformative encounter with the Holy Spirit at a men's retreat and his initial reluctance to engage in prison ministry, which eventually became a significant part of his calling. Jim discusses his experience meeting and ministering to some of the most hardened prisoners and seeing their lives change through faith in Jesus Christ. Jim also outlines the mission and diverse areas of Christian Chaplains and Coaching, sharing insights on how individuals can become involved in chaplaincy across various fields. The episode is filled with inspirational stories of redemption, hope, and the powerful impact of hospitality and genuine friendship in ministry.

https://christianchaplains.org/

www.youtube.com/@ChristianChaplainsCoaching

Transcript

0:00

I went on a men's retreat weekend. And at that retreat I had an encounter with the Holy Spirit that just brought me to my knees, brought tears to my eyes. I came home from that weekend changed. It was only a couple years after that I started volunteering as a chaplain So friends of mine that were very involved with inside the prison ministry needed. Help for that team, and they wanted me to be on the team with them, and I did not want to go. My attitude towards those that were incarcerated was lock'em up and throw away the key. They deserve to be there. They should be punished for what they did. I didn't want anything to do with them. I was totally ignoring the scripture where Jesus said, when I was in prison, you visited me and And so kicking and screaming. I got dragged into the prison on this team and I met murderers, rapists, drug lords, gang leaders. Worst of the worst, really, and I saw several of them be influenced by Jesus Christ in a way that it made a visible difference in their life. And they came to Jesus and gave themselves to Jesus. But that experience absolutely rocked my world. It changed my life. And it is the reason why I made progress at becoming an ordained chaplain and making chaplaincy a major part of my ministry. From the city of Chicago, a city most recently known for its crime and violence. On this podcast, we will be sharing stories of redemption from individuals raised in the tough streets of Chicago and from around the country. Some of them were gang members, drug dealers, incarcerated victims, and perpetrators of violence. Listen to my guests as they share their experiences, struggles, trauma, but also the strength, hope, faith and perseverance, these have developed in them to keep pushing and moving forward in life. Tune in to hear how their lives have gone from darkness to light and from wrong to strong.

Omar: 2:22

Uh, hello everyone, and welcome to another, uh, episode of Wrong to Strong Chicago. I'm your host. Uh, my name's Omar Calvio, uh, and this afternoon. It's actually, uh, on a Sunday first, uh, podcast interview I've done on a Sunday, and I'm doing it on my phone. Uh, so I hope it comes out well. It looks like so far, so good. Uh, but I'm here with, uh, uh, the executive Director of Christian Chaplains and Coaching. His name is Jim Kirkland. Uh, he's been, uh, he's a retired pastor who was doing pastoral ministry for over 35 years, also as a Christian, uh, life and also in Christian life coaching. Also as in chaplain ministry, but there's more information that he's gonna share as we go along. Uh, but I'd like to work on to the podcast. They, they, they thank you for being out here.

Jim: 3:09

Thank you, Omar. It's really, really good to be with you today and a message to you from all of our staff that we really love you and we're really proud of you. And we're really glad to call you one of our chaplains.

Omar: 3:23

Hmm. Amen. Amen. And, uh, yeah, the, the, the way I met him was, uh, through Christian Chaplains and coaching. Mm-hmm. Uh, I was introduced to this ministry, uh, from a friend of my wife, uh, her name's Sarah Gonzalez. Uh, Sarah is involved in, uh, cook County, a prison ministry. Um, she's the one that got me connected with, uh, Nia House National Ministries, and I'm volunteering in Cook County. Uh, but through her she told me, Hey Omar, you should look into, um, this ministry. So I went online. Started looking into it. I, I watched some of their, uh, videos describing the program. Uh, I joined and I took it. It definitely blessed me. So I, I want to thank you for the work that you're doing, and, uh, eventually I want to get into how you got into it and what exactly is Christian chapter and coaching, and definitely want the listeners to hear about it and maybe who knows? God willing, they have that heart, that desire to serve in such a capacity. Maybe they could join along to what you guys have, uh, started. Sure thing. Alright, uh, uh, uh, you, you, you wanna tell us, uh, like I said, we wanna get into how you got there, but man, let, let's go to the beginning. Uh, you want to tell us, uh, what part of the country did you grew up in and how was life for you? As, as, as, as a young kid, you know?

Jim: 4:34

Oh boy. You're going. I mean, I'm 67 years old, so we're going back a long time. Way back when Moby Dick was still a guppy, basically. So, no, I was born in, uh, Ohio. And, um, the unexpected addition to a family that already had three children. My brothers and sister were, uh, 10 and 12 and 14 years older than me, so I was the accidental gift to the family. Uh, but my father died when I was three years old. Uh, which really, of course, as you can imagine, threw a real monkey wrench into our. Into our whole workings of our family. We were pretty poor at that time. Uh, didn't really have resources financially. Mom was desperate. Uh, I could tell you some stories about what we went through back at that time, but bottom line is, is my mom, uh, about, I. When I was five years old, met a a, a man who was a principal of a school. An educator, made good money. She was desperate for financial support, uh, and reached out to him and, and they ended up getting married. And, uh, when I was going into the fourth grade, he was offered a job in Nova Scotia, Canada. And so he moved us to Nova Scotia when I was in the fourth grade. And so that's where I grew up all the way through my first year of college. Uh, in, I don't know if you've ever been to Nova Scotia, but you can Google it. It's a beautiful place.

Omar: 6:07

Um, you, you, you know what could, could, could, could you describe it maybe a little bit like for our listeners? Well, Nova Scotia.

Jim: 6:12

Nova Scotia is a gale, uh, word. It means New Scotland. It was settled originally by the Scottish people way many, many years ago. But the Highlands of Cape Britain, Nova Scotia looked so much like the highlands of Scotland, is that they called it New Scotland, which is Nova Scotia. So there's a big Celtic or Celtic influence there, bagpipers and the kilt wearing people. And, um. Uh, it's just a lot of music and Irish and Scotch influence and, uh, it was quite an interesting, wonderful place, uh, for me to grow up. I loved the people there and in some ways miss it, but as, as, as my life continued, uh, my stepfather. Uh, in terms of influence on my life was an abusive alcoholic. Now, for you and your constituents, especially those that have been incarcerated, that have responded to whatever victim they are a victims of, right? We're all victims of something. We all are. And, uh, all of us respond to the negative things that happen to us. Uh, mostly we respond in negative ways. Uh, some of us commit crimes and some of us don't. Uh, or some of us at least don't get caught on committing a crime. But for me, the, the, uh, abuse, verbal abuse, a little physical abuse, no sexual abuse, um, fights with my brother, uh, my, my next brother who was still young enough to still be at home. Um. It was a very challenging life and, um, I eventually got to the point in Nova Scotia where I had thought I was gonna go into the Canadian military. And that's a whole long story that we really don't have time to get into. But that did not work out. And, uh, by the time I finished my, uh, first year of college at St. Mary's University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, um. I was just kind of lost, um, didn't know what I was going to do. Uh, career choice that I thought I was gonna follow up on did not work out. But my brother Bill, who was a Vietnam veteran and, uh, and as we're celebrating or remembering Memorial Day this weekend and the lives that were lost from people that wore the uniform of the United States, it's. Um, probably good to remember to say thanks to them. Uh, but my brother was a, uh, Vietnam vet and, uh, decorated Silver Star, two Bronze Stars Combat v Purple Heart. Um, I mean, he really saw action in Vietnam and, but he had moved back to the, back to Ohio and, uh, he was in the Kent State area where Kent State University is located. He had gotten married and I talked to him on the phone and I told him how lost I was. I didn't know what I was gonna do, and he said, well, why don't you just move. In with us. Why don't you just come back to Ohio? And I did. And I went to Kent State and I'm so glad I did because that's where I met my girlfriend. Uh, and we've now been married for 47 years. Wow. But I wasn't raised in a Christian household. We did not know Jesus. I didn't know about Jesus. I just know that Jesus had something to do with the celebration of Christmas. And uh, and the reason why we got presents on Christmas day and, and somehow. He was related to Santa Claus, but I didn't know really much about that. But after I met my wife and uh, we spent one year at Kent State and then. Both of us were unsure what we were gonna do. I was offered a job in Michigan. She dropped outta school with me and we eloped and ran away and went to Michigan and took on this job and met, uh, a new friend in Michigan. I. Never forget this man. He's gone now, he's gone to be with the Lord. His name was Billy Brickey, the old Southern Baptist fellow that made friends with Virginia and me and invited us to his home for dinner one time. And, uh, before he invited us to church, he invited us to his home. I. And, uh, his small group from church was there and we enjoyed a meal. And after the meal was over, I'll never forget that, uh, they, they just got Bibles out and decided they were gonna have a Bible study. And I, we had never done that before and neither my wife nor me, uh, with the dessert came the Bibles and the Bible discussion and the conversation, and they were wondering what we believe and we shared the, well, we don't. Really believe what you believe. And they were okay with that. They, they invited us back for dinner the next Sunday too. And we went and we became dear friends with them and eventually we started going to church while my wife and I were living together in sin. And, uh, they did not judge us for that. That still stands out to me even to this day. Right? They didn't, they weren't judgmental. They just loved us in where, right, where we were. Anyway, long story short, we started going to church with them. My wife and I, uh. I dunno. Maybe the third or fourth Sunday that we were there, we were during an altar call that, uh, pastor Larry Lawrence from Taylor Center Baptist Church. It's amazing. I can even still remember the name. It's been a long time ago. That was back in 1978 when this all happened. Um,

Omar: 11:22

that's when I was born.

Jim: 11:23

Yeah, that's, you were born 1978. Okay.

Omar: 11:26

Yeah. Yes.

Jim: 11:26

Okay. Well, so we accepted the altar call. My wife and I grabbed our hands and grabbed, held hands, and we walked. We walked down together and my brother, bill and his wife were there too. We, all four of us, accepted Christ together that day. Uh, and then a few, a couple weeks later, uh, we walked the aisle again when we went down there to, uh, go and get baptized in front of the church. And so all four of us, we were baptized together, which was kind of a neat thing, you know, that happened. Um, then, then after we became believers, that's when my. When our new friends led by Billy Brickey began to share with us what the Scripture's teaching was about sex and marriage and the importance of obeying the commands of Christ. And what, what I really take from that, which I, I hope your listeners take from this too, is that as believers, we're not here to disciple the unsaved. We're here to show them what a change to life in Jesus Christ can look like. And if the Holy Spirit draws them near to Jesus and they get saved, then we can disciple them. And that's what these people did for us. They didn't start directing us to obey Jesus until we believed Jesus. Hmm. That's when they began to disciple us and it had a real impact on us and we took it to heart. And so my wife and I, although we were living in the same house, we did have two bedrooms. And so I moved out of the bedroom that she was in and we slept in separate rooms for several weeks, which was really hard to do when we're, when we're used to sleeping, you know, together. Yeah. Um, but we, we did our best to honor, uh, what we were learning from scripture and from our Christian friends on how to live the Christian life. We, we stayed celibate, uh, during that period of time. We, we waited and then the time came for us to get married on November 4th, 1978. Just recently born again, recently baptized, and then my wife and I. Walked to the aisle one more time at the same church, and that's when we were married. And my brother Bill was my best man at that wedding. So that's the story of my salvation. Hmm. However, I'll say that the. Abuse that I took and believing that I was never gonna be good enough. That nothing that I ever could do was ever gonna be right or good enough. If I would get a, a minus on a grade at school, it would be how, you know, you're, you're worthless. How, why didn't you get an A? So my whole upbringing with this abusive of father was very, very challenging and difficult for me. And, and, uh, one of my brothers was so, uh, rebellious and. And, you know, and rightly so, it was a difficult life. He'd lost his father. He was angry with God, and, and he hated our stepfather. So there's nothing but fighting. And then he took it out on me. And so I had a lot of that growing up. And. So I, I was always defensive and aggressive and abrasive and had kind of the attitude, you know, tell me I can't do something. Well hold my beer and watch this was kind of my attitude, right? So, started my own company in 1979, incorporated it in 1981, was in financial services business. Um, investment management. Went and became a stockbroker and learned how to do those kinds of things. Um, calling myself a Christian because I was a believer in Jesus, but I cannot say that I had actually changed my life. Hmm. My life didn't begin to change until the Holy Spirit really got a hold of my heart. But that didn't happen for nearly 15 years. Wow. Uh, I was really self-serving and self-interested, and we had children and I, I was as mean of a father as my stepfather was really, I didn't know how to be a dad. And I regret that with my kids today and they'll, they'll tell you that I'm the dad they have today is a different dad from when they had, when they were, when they were younger because the Holy Spirit has been and is continuing. To change me into something new. But there, there came a point in time where

15:32

I went on a men's retreat weekend.

Jim: 15:34

Um, it was called The Way of Christ Weekend. It was three days with, with men on a retreat.

15:40

And at that retreat I had an encounter with the Holy Spirit that just brought me to my knees, brought tears to my eyes.

Jim: 15:49

Uh, and that's,

15:51

I came home from that weekend changed. It was only a couple years after that

Jim: 15:56

while I was really becoming more serious about dedicating my life to Jesus and living it for him. Even in the business that I was in,

16:03

I started

Jim: 16:04

at that time

16:04

volunteering as a chaplain

Jim: 16:06

and serving at a nursing home and going to visit people in the, uh, police department and trying to work with the sheriff's department and that kind of thing. But mostly it was nursing homework that I was doing and. I just started to feel an increasing interest in call in ministry.

16:24

So friends of mine that were very involved with

Jim: 16:31

something called Kairos, which is a

16:35

inside the prison ministry

Jim: 16:37

where they actually go into a prison, maximum security prison or a high security prison, uh,

16:43

needed. Help for that team, and they wanted me to be on the team with them, and I did not want to go. My attitude towards those that were incarcerated was lock'em up and throw away the key. They deserve to be there. They should be punished for what they did. I didn't want anything to do with them. I was totally ignoring the scripture where Jesus said, when I was in prison, you visited me and

Jim: 17:07

I was reminded of that by my Christian friends who said, Jim, you you, you probably need to do this more for you. Hmm than for anybody else.

17:16

And so kicking and screaming. I got dragged into the prison on this team

Jim: 17:21

for Kairos

17:23

and I met murderers, rapists, drug lords gang leaders. Worst of the worst, really,

Jim: 17:35

that were approved to be on this weekend, or 40 inmates that were involved on this weekend.

17:42

And I saw several of them be influenced by Jesus Christ in a way that it made a visible difference in their life. And they came to Jesus and

Jim: 17:50

gave Himself.

17:52

Gave themselves to Jesus.

Jim: 17:53

And Omar, I know, I know. You know something about that experience. Yes.

17:59

But that experience absolutely rocked my world. It changed my life. And it is the reason why I made progress at becoming an ordained chaplain and making chaplaincy a major part of my ministry.

Jim: 18:17

Now, I tried to be a pastor too for several years. I worked in several different churches as as a interim senior pastor and a senior pastor and executive pastor. And I got chewed up and spit out as a pastor because I, I believe that the primary job of a pastor found an Ephesians, which says that the pastor and teacher who equips the saints or believers for ministry, and I was pastoring in churches that were so stuck in their traditions. And in being with each other while ignoring those who don't know Jesus, without a desire to love people who live life differently than they do, unwilling to serve the lost, um, that I was unable to train them to serve the lost as because of my experience inside the prison. Had caused me to want them to participate in so that they could receive the joy that Jesus promised us if we're on mission with him. And that that changed the whole trajectory of my faith and belief system. So, long story short, that that now put me on a path towards being a pastor, which I failed at because I could not get the saints that I was trying to lead to get off their butts in the pews. And get out there and do the work of Mission and Ministry, which we're all called to do, they would rather sit on their hind end and watch the professionals do all the work for them instead of participating in ministry. While we did it together, I. That was a challenge for me, but in chaplaincy, when I began training others to serve as chaplains, come with me. We'll get you credentialed as a chaplain. Let's get you deployed. Let's show you how. Let's do it together for a while. Let me get you placed inside of a prisoner or a jail, or a police department or fire department, or or a hospital or a nursing home, or a hospice company, or an assisted living, or a Celebrate Recovery ministry for people that are suffering from addictive behavior or biblical victim. Abuse, uh, uh, abuse, you know, how do you help people that have been suffering from abuse all their life, sexual, um, physical verbal abuse? That, that are struggling without even having a normal life. How can we chaplains get out there and do it? And what I discovered in teaching chaplaincy and showing people how to do this ministry is that the mature believers of a church who wanted to be on mission like the ambassador of Jesus, that we are supposed to be missionaries. Working on the mission field, bringing the body of Christ to show people what it looks like when the body of Christ shows up in the middle of their crisis. That's when that's when I started to really feel successful at equipping the Saints for ministry. So I got out of pastoring and chaplaincy became my focus, and seven years ago this October, I. At at age 60. When I thought I was gonna be retiring, God put me back to work where I'm working longer hours now than I've ever worked, ever, you know, as executive director for Christian chaplains and coaching, and our, our mission is to restore chaplaincy to biblical Christianity. Our mission is to help. Blue collar scholars, people that have at least a high school and some additional education, but they're learners. They're wanting to learn. They're willing to learn. Let's get a path where they can learn the basics of chaplaincy and grief care and maybe biblical victim care prison ministry. They can learn some basics, get credentialed as an ordained chaplain. Legally recognized as clergy, then continue their education after that, through certifications and continuing education and that kind of thing. That was our vision when we started this ministry seven years ago. The reason why we feel it needs to be restored to biblical Christianity is because although Chaplaincy is a 1500 year old Christian ministry, it's been hijacked over the last 50 years. By Universalists, secular humanists, atheists, all kinds of people who are calling themselves chaplains and forcing Christians to believe things that are false in order to be a chaplain. And so we wanted to restore chaplaincy to our Christian roots, our evangelical, biblical Christian roots. That's why we started the ministry. And so today it's been seven years. We've got over 400 people that we've ordained as chaplains. We are teaching all kinds of continuing education courses and certifications. Certified Christian life coach, biblical victim training. Grief training for, for your church. Uh, prison ministry courses, basics of chaplaincy courses. We've got college courses. We have a track for people to get their associate's degree with chaplain emphasis, bachelor's degree in chaplaincy, master's of degrees in chaplaincy with clinical, pastoral education being taught. These are all things that God has done in our ministry. I'm gonna, I'm gonna close with this and give you a chance to get a word in edgewise here, Omar. Uh. God has been blessing us and we have been increasing and expanding our ministry so much that for me, it's so much bigger than I imagined it seven years ago that it's sort of been like trying to get a drink of water out of a fire hose and it is knocking me. Kind of what the old saying is ARS and Over Tea Kettle, if you know what I mean. It's just knocking me backwards off my feet because the Lord has just been growing our ministry. We've grown our teaching team, we've got staff now of 10 people. Uh, it's just crazy what God is doing with our ministry. And I would invite you to go deeper in your own education and certifications and lifelong learning. And I would invite any of your listeners if, if, listen, if you're truly a born again believer. If you're truly a member of the, of the church, the big seed church, the church universal, which is made up of every born again believer in Jesus Christ, who was, who is and who will be. That's the church. And if you are a member of that church and you believe what we believe. And you have a desire to become the hands and feet of Jesus and learn how to serve effectively outside of the church in secular settings where the lost are hurting. They're in the storm of life. They don't know how to deal with their circumstances. They're suffering post-traumatic stress disorder. They're suffering grief. They're suffering addictive behavior, and they don't know how to change their life. But we can show them what changed life looks like and give them hope. And if you're interested in that kind of ministry as a chaplain, you go to our website and check us out. We'd love to help you. We'd love to help you become a chaplain, and then help you go further for the rest of your life to learn how to be an effective spiritual care provider as a chaplain, wherever it is that God calls you to serve. Well, is that what you were looking for, Omar? Or was that a little bit too much? Oh man, much.

Omar: 25:41

No, no, no. That's great. And actually I want get more. It's so good. I want a little more, uh, you know, speaking of that, could you share the website where people could go to, to hear about what you guys are doing?

Jim: 25:50

Yeah, that'll be Christian chaplains dot ORG. Now remember, chaplain is spelled two different ways. Charlie Chaplin. The comedian of old is spelled C-H-A-P-L-I-N, Chaplin. That's not how you spell chaplain. Chaplain is spelled C-H-A-P-L-A-I-N. So if you Google. Christian chaplains.org. You will find us. In fact, if you do a search on Google for Christian chaplains in general, you'll probably see our website pop up as the first or second choice because we're one of. Very few, if any, genuinely biblical evangelical Christian ministries that are dedicated to chaplaincy these days. And so there's a few but not very many. But you'll find us just doing a Google search. Go to the website. You can find out what we believe, what our membership expectations are, what our courses are, and how you might become one of our chaplains just like you. Omar, one of one of our chaplains. I get, I get to take credit for you being one of ours and I'm proud of you.

Omar: 26:56

Oh, no. I, I thank you. I'm truly blessed by it. And, uh, I, I know this is just the beginning. I know you beforehand, before we started recording, you're challenging me to continue education. Sure. Why not? Associates, bachelor's. And just to keep going. So I'm definitely, uh, looking forward.'cause, uh, I'm, uh, I, I heard, uh, somebody just told me recently, what do you say? Uh, uh, he said, uh, sometimes a teacher, always a student. And that really stood out to me like, man, that, oh, that, that, that, that should be us. He says, sometimes a teacher, always a student. That's, so that's,

Jim: 27:27

that's an excellent saying. I love that.

Omar: 27:29

Yeah. I just heard

Jim: 27:30

that recently. I, yeah, go ahead. That ties into what it means to be a disciple. The word disciple, it's from a Greek word es, it means disciple or student, depending on where you're reading it. When Jesus spoke the word in Matthew 28, go therefore, and make disciples, baptizing them. Who are them? Disciples. You can't be a disciple unless you're a believer. So you gotta be, become a believer first, right? You have to believe before you become a disciple, baptizing them, which is what is that symbolic of the life I was living. The person I used to be is dead. I. Buried with Jesus and raised to new life. That's what baptism is symbolic of. I'm crucified with Christ. I'm a new creation. I'm raised to new life. Then teaching them to obey all that I've commanded. So what is, what do you do when you're learning you're a student? Guess what? That's what the word disciple means. A student, a follower, a learner. And so in Luke, after Jesus went through the beatitudes. He talked about don't live judgmental condemning lives. He said, live lives of loving everybody right where they are. Love them where they are. Be rich in spirit. Although you may be poor financially, be rich in spirit. Listen. Don't be pointing fingers at what's wrong with everybody else until you first address what's wrong with you, so that you can show them what progress looks like. And he illustrated that with the parable of the blind man. A blind man cannot lead a blind man. Can he? Won't they both fall into a pit? Well, of course the answer to that question is yes. He goes on to say that a student. That same word, they're translated student or disciple, depending on translation. I don't mean to be preaching a sermon for you here, but No, no, but this is important on the subject that you brought up of, of learning, right? Yes. Because that's what we are as disciples, we're learners. He says A student is not above his teacher. In other words. You and I as students, we don't know more than the person who's made more progress than us at taking the log from their own eye. I. So that they can see clearly to remove the splinter from their brother. I we're, we're, we're talking about somebody who's a little bit more advanced in walking the walk. We talk, showing us, teaching us how to do that. But us students, we're as students, we're not above our teacher. We don't know more than our teacher, but it goes on to say, but when fully trained, the student becomes like his teacher. Ultimately our teacher is Rabbi Jesus. Amen. Rabbi means teacher. Yeah. And we're the student and we're supposed to be teaching each other how to obey all that Christ has commanded. Right? That's part of it. But you can only do that to a believer. You can't do that to a nonbeliever'cause they don't believe it. Why would they wanna follow it if they don't believe it? And so, uh, put that another way to just to close this out. Um. One of my seminary professors, when I was at Moody Theological Seminary, I was working on my master's degree. He illustrated that passage of scripture by saying that a student can learn the, here's the difference between being a student and being a disciple, because both of them are learners. We can go to school and we can pass an exam by. Correctly giving back to the teacher, the answers the teacher is looking for. That doesn't mean we become like the teacher, right? Doesn't necessarily mean that. So he said to illustrate this, that a student can learn what his teacher knows, but a disciple becomes what his teacher is. Amen. So as learners. Our goal in this life is to be steadily transformed and conformed into the image and likeness of Christ steadily over time. And how do I know, Omar, that you are not there yet? Same way. I know I'm not there yet. You know why? We're still breathing. How was that? We're still breathing. Amen. So we're not done yet, right? Amen. I'm 67 years old and I'm getting ready to start my doctorate.

Omar: 32:04

Wow.

Jim: 32:05

Only because why not? What's stopping me? The only thing stopping you or me from doing anything for Jesus is between our ears. That's the only thing stopping any of us is the obstacles that exist between our ears. That little voice inside of us saying, you can't do it. You are not worthy. You're never gonna be good enough. That's how I was raised, and the Lord has delivered me from that yoke of slavery and thank God I'm now in a position to encourage people like you to join me. Come on, let's do this. We can do this together.

Omar: 32:38

Amen. Amen. You know what, pastor, on that note, do you say a short prayer for people who are struggling with that very same thing, like you mentioned, that's what's hindering what's between the ears. And I know you said that the Lord helped you overcome, but I just feel like somebody maybe needs a short prayer specifically in that area to break, break from that.

Jim: 32:59

Listen. Uh, yes. Um, uh, Philippians, um, four 12. Um. Tells us that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. And that doesn't mean I can get anything I want in this life. Lord, we, we don't wanna apply that scripture incorrectly, that Pa Paul has told us there, oh Lord. And you have told us through his word, that whether I'm rich or poor. Whether I have much or plenty, whether I am hungry or I am full, whether I'm in prison or out of prison, no matter what I am going through in this life, I can endure anything through Christ who strengthens me. I, with Jesus can get through this. I can endure through this. I can make progress. I can grow, I can improve, and I pray, oh God. Whatever it's, it is between the ears of a listener to this podcast who has up to this point in life been handcuffed to the lie of Satan, that they're not worthy, handcuffed to the lie of Satan, that they can never be made right. They could never be forgiven. They could never have a better life because they don't deserve it. I rebuke that now in the name of Jesus Christ, and I pray, oh God, that those shackles will be released, that their prison door will be opened, but they have to walk out of it. And I pray, oh God, that somebody will hear this. And make the choice to receive you for salvation, to receive the forgiveness that only you can give and decide to turn their life over to you and start making progress at walking life in a new way with your help and with the help of fellow believers. And I ask this in the name of Jesus. Amen.

Omar: 34:58

My name. I thank you for that prayer and, and the reason I ask, not just for the listeners, but even for myself, like when you said that that's something that I believe. Hinders me. It's usually us stop stopping us from continuing to grow that little boy. So definitely I thank you for that. Uh, I, I, I wanna go back to something you shared that stood out to me. I had actually to write it down. Uh, you said that the, before, that couple that introduced you to, to Christ that brought you to church that said, you said that before the church was hospitality. They invited you to their home. I know hospitality's, uh, big As far as your, uh, uh, I believe it's on the core values, if I'm not mistaken. So could, could you share about that? Because when you shared that story, I'm like, man, I wonder if that's part of the reason why hospitality is so big. To, to, to you guys.

Jim: 35:44

It, it honestly is, um, we, we use a phrase called missional community. These days, there's a lot of churches and organizations that practice something called small group, especially in traditional churches. They, they have small groups, right? They, they call it discipleship, but uh, mostly it isn't discipleship because it's. Well, all they're doing is same group of people year in and year out, only meeting together and they meet in their homes and they pray together, which is great. And they study the Bible and they share food and they pray for each other. And then they come back together next week after church or whenever they meet. But unless we're on mission, outside of the context of church, we're not really learning how to make disciples. We're not learning how to share the gospel. We're not learning how to proclaim. And so. Remind me your question again'cause I just, I just took a left hand turn in my head and started going in the wrong direction. Yeah, yeah.

Omar: 36:35

Bring me back here, Omar, bring me back. You, you, you mentioned that, that before they invited me to church. They invited me to the home. Oh, the hospitality.

Jim: 36:42

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely. So that's why we re we use the term missional community where, where believers are coming together. In the context of hospitality for each other, yes, as believers, but also being hospitable to those who don't believe, like that hospitality that was extended to Virginia and I, who, as I look back on it, we were living an abhorrent lifestyle to them. We were living in sin, we were having sex together. We even had had an abortion back at that time, which is a whole completely other topic, right? Yeah. Uh, and they knew all about that, and I know now that bothered them. They never let us know that it bothered them because we weren't believers yet. And so by extending hospitality to us in a culturally sensitive way, in a relevant way, where we were. We weren't made to feel like we were being judged or condemned for the lifestyle that we were in, and they trusted the Holy Spirit to draw us to God without them feeling like they have to twist our arm to accept Jesus. They gave us that hospitality. So what? What do we do in hospitality? Well, several things. One. Is wherever we go as the body of Christ, we're creating a hospitable environment, a safe place where people can feel like, you know, I can talk to you about anything and you're not judging me. Everywhere I go, I'm being judged everywhere. People are telling me I'm this, or telling me that I'm that, or I'm not gonna ever be this, or I'm not gonna ever be that, or This life that I'm leading is horrendous. I'm judged everywhere. And especially those that are incarcerated, everybody's judging them. Nobody's loving them. So in hospitality, we're extending that ministry of presence where we're genuinely present. We're genuinely interested, and just like you've been interested in my story today, right? In hospitality, we're interested in their story. We wanna know more about you. What is your life like? How, how did you get to where you are right now? What, okay, well this is where you are. What do you think you did right so far? What would you change if you could change anything? You know, those are the kind of questions that we wanna be asking people and just let them talk it out. Tell me your story. What was your life like? What was your house like? What was your, what kind of foods did you grow up eating? You know, what was your culture like? Really? Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine that. Right? And then, and tell me more about that. That that's hospitality. That's where people save talking. Through that ministry of presence, while we learn to ask questions, we stop trying to fix people because we can't fix people. Only God can fix people and being hospitable right with them right where they are outside of the church and trusting Jesus through that hospitality to draw them or repel them. And brother. They will either be drawn to Jesus or they'll be repelled by Jesus, and we do not have control over that. So if they're repelled by Jesus and they never wanna talk to us, then Jesus said, shake that dust off your feet. Go to the next one, and keep bringing the hand of fellowship to these people and love them as they are. That's the commands of Jesus, but those who are attracted to Jesus. Who become saved now they're part of our family. And we begin to disciple those by doing life with them and teaching them and loving them, and, and now gently correcting them from the word of God without being judgmental or condemning about it. So that's hospitality and that's why it's such an important part of our ministry.

Omar: 40:46

And I think that ties in perfectly to one of your, um, I would say a model of yours that really spoke to me, uh, as a, a make a friend. Be your friend and help lead that friend to Christ. Amen. And that really like, like, spoke to me, especially in regards to, uh, uh, one of the other things that, that, uh, stood out is no proselytizing, basically trying to convert somebody. And just like you mentioned, just get to know the person. Like, uh, I, I think I even, one of the questions when I filed my, uh. Was it my report or the, that I had to turn into you? The paper? Yeah. Uh, that's what I wrote down. Yeah. The paper. One of the things that that stood out to me is, uh, usually in, in the past if somebody came to me with a, with a belief that was contrary to mine, to, to, to my belief, or they were attacking my faith or trying to, uh, convert me in a sense to whatever they believe, I would automatically tune them out. In my mind, like I'm just like, I'm not gonna listen to them. I don't want to hear what they gotta say. But now my mindsets shift. Well, man, let, let me listen to the person, let me get to know them. Let let me get to know why they believe what they believe. And just like sincerely, like listen, get to know them and just maybe get a chance to build, like you mentioned, a friend, a friendship, or at least o uh, open line of communication. So that's definitely something that's stood out to me now where I was telling my wife, I think it was even yesterday. Like, man, maybe one day I'm gonna do podcasts with people that believe opposite of what I believe. Like maybe, maybe they don't believe at all. Why, why, why, why can't I have sit down and have a conversation with'em and hear them out without me trying to convert them or them trying to make me doubt my faith? But man, just to get to know you, I, I want to know what led you to where you're at now. Sure. Why don't you believe, or why do you believe what you believe? That's definitely one thing that, that I got from, from your ministry.

Jim: 42:43

Yeah. Thank you for that. And yeah, that make a friend be a friend and, uh, draw your friend to Christ. You, you might have to be a friend for a long time before you get an opportunity to draw them to Christ. And there's a reason why the Bible says that the road is narrow that leads to heaven, and few will find it. And the path to hell is wide. It's a multi-lane highway and many are on it. We don't have control over who ends up on the narrow path and who ends up on the wide road, but we do have control over extending hospitality to the collective. Everybody like the Acts, chapter two verses 37 to 47, it talked about what the original church looked like as they did life together as the body of Christ among nonbelievers, who many of them were trying to kill them. Roman society was a dangerous place for a Christian to live back at that time. But the scripture goes on to say that they had favor with all the people. It was the Christians that were creating the hospitals. It was the Christians who were doing the orphanages. It was the Christians who were visiting people in jails and prisons. It was the Christians who were helping the folks next. Door who don't believe, who just lost their husband in a disaster and had children at home that they couldn't feed. It was the Christians who were doing that, and they had favor with all the people. And because of that, God added to their number daily, those who were being saved in spite of the persecution. So that's our mission. Make a friend be a friend. And draw your friend to Christ if the Lord draws them near right. Amen. And then do life with them. Amen. Amen. Adopt them into Amen. The family. Amen. And now we're on the same team, brother. All right. Let's do this together. Let's help each other. Let's make progress,

Omar: 44:43

man. Uh, one of the things that stood out too is, uh, we, we, we can't save nobody. It's the work of the Holy Spirit. And a lot of times, man, if I don't share the gospel like with them, like, man, I, I, I'm gonna be part of them, not. Coming to Christ or them not coming to salvation. Yeah. And I, I love that that took like, almost like the, I would say like the pressure off in a sense where Sure man, whether I say it or not, like I can't save them. It's gonna be a work of the Holy Spirit and being okay with it.'cause I believe you said they gotta, uh, give you permission to share the gospel.

Jim: 45:15

Well, in a secular setting. Right, A prison or a hospital. Yeah, secular. Yes. Or veterans administration or military or what have you. If we're going like a contact evangelist, door to door, telling people about Jesus, leaning in and saying, Hey, you gotta know about Jesus. If you died today, do you know if we're gonna go to heaven or hell? Well, I suppose that might have a place, and there are evangelists that I. They say they get some success in doing it that way, but as chaplains, we rather lean back in a comfortable chair and invite them into a friendship, right? We invite, we extend the hospitality, we make them feel. Safe telling us about their life. And it's amazing how many times people will begin to ask us about the hope that they see in us. I, I wanna, the last scripture I'll share with you on that subject Yeah. Is, is the, what I believe is the, on this subject is the most chaplain verse, although the, the word chaplain doesn't appear in the Bible. That first was used in the fifth century, like 500 years later. But first Peter, chapter three, verse 15, I believe, is the most chaplain verse you're ever gonna find. First Peter, chapter three, verse 15. We ask our chaplains to memorize that scripture and meditate on it because it says this, honor in your hearts Christ, the Lord as holy. Holy, not. It doesn't mean often what we think it means. It means to be set apart exclusively for the plan and purpose of God. And Jesus did that perfectly. We do it imperfectly, but Jesus was perfect in His holiness, only doing what the Father wanted him to do. He was holy. And we are, we are being told to honor in our hearts Christ. The Lord is holy, which implies that we're gonna be living our lives differently, setting Jesus up in our lives as the holy one of God who we are dedicating our lives to living for, for the rest of our lives going forward. And if we do that, you'd think, you'd think, wouldn't you, that something would be different. When people see us in action, when people talk to us, when people share a meal with us, when people sit down across from us and have a conversation, you'd think there'd be something different. So that scripture says, honor in your heart Christ. The Lord is holy. Always being prepared to make a defense. Now, here's where the, the door to door contact evangelists stop and they'll quote that scripture and say, you see there? I have to go and tell everybody about Jesus, whether they wanna hear it or not, but it doesn't stop there. Always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you don't go too quickly in your mind here. I. Always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you. We gotta be waiting for that in our hospitality. We gotta be patient in our hospitality and ask us for what it tells us to anyone who asks you for the reason, for the hope they see in you yet. Do it. That is make your defense with gentleness and peace. That's a chaplain. That's the Ministry of Hospitality, and that takes learning and experience, practical guidance, continuing education, certifications, action, reflection, self-awareness, spiritual disciplines, and all of the above in order for all of us as chaplains to get. Better and better and better over time at this wonderful craft of chaplaincy that we can lead people to Christ through without pushing our faith on them uninvited. And I've saved more people as a chaplain than I did as a pastor. Well, Jesus has saved more people through my ministry as a chaplain than he saved through my ministry as a pastor. So I just leave it at that.

Omar: 49:41

Amen. You know, I, I know we touched a little bit on prison ministry as far as the chaplain in prisons. What other areas are, are, are chaplains, uh, needed, you know, for somebody that's gonna listen to this and maybe they're interested and what other are like the places where chaplains are?

Jim: 49:56

Mm. Well, I mean, I'll give you a, a, a, I'll get my machine gun out and give you a machine gun kind of listing of, of areas Veterans administration, hospitals. Uh, department of Defense for military. We've got chaplains that are now in the military, uh, police departments, fire departments, um, state prisons, federal prisons. Uh, ministries that are working with the jails and the prisons where they're sending volunteers in to work, chaplains can be involved in that ministry. Uh, you've got biblical victim care, you've got child abuse ministry, you've got, uh, alcohol and drug and other addictive behavior recovery. Ministries like Celebrate Recovery. We have quite a few chaplains that are involved in Celebrate Recovery. We've got chaplains that are involved in ministry to non-English speaking people who are living in the United States. Um, and they, they do an amazing ministry. They hook up with English as a second language or ESL, where they'll have a church team that comes in and invites these people into a hospitable relationship where they share meals and. They're teaching them how to speak and engage with English while loving them as a missional community that is on mission for Jesus, to show these people what it looks like to be part of the body of Christ. So they're just being loved into the presence of Jesus without forcing Jesus. And they use English as a second language, as a means for doing that. There's chaplains that are doing that ministry, um. Goodness sakes. We, we've got chaplains that are involved with wayward youth, uh, juveniles that are, uh, coming from broken homes, and they're upset and they're angry and they're lashing out and they're getting in trouble. They're in trouble with the law. They're in trouble at school. Parents are not home when the bus takes them home. So their current situation doesn't allow them to be taken home by the bus. So they have to go to a, they have to go kind of a, to a halfway house or some interim stop until their parents are home. You got chaplains up in Holland, Michigan that are doing an amazing ministry, hard Hardwick Ministries. It's just amazing the work they're doing for wayward children. Uh, and now they've got people that have become chaplains that are serving in that ministry that were troubled youth back 10, 12 years ago. Mm-hmm. When they were being helped. So, oh my gosh. That's just a sampling of ideas. Yeah. Of, of where chaplains can and should serve. Our, our job, if any of your people are interested in becoming a chaplain, is to help you answer a couple of questions and, and let, and then close with that. Um, first question is to try and understand what God is saying to you right now about what he wants you to do. That takes some discernment to do that. And then the second part of that question is, what are we gonna do about it? Because there's no lone Rangers in Christianity. We're called to be the family of God, the body of Christ. I. That doesn't look like a bunch of lone rangers out there doing our own thing. It means that we're part of the family. We go on mission together, like the family on mission with Jesus to the people that he's sending us to. So when we think about what God is saying to you about what he wants you to do, that's asking you, who are you primarily gonna be serving? Is it the incarcerated? Is it people that have been released from prison that are in supervision? They need help and assistance, getting an id, getting clothing, getting a job, getting help, getting place to live, getting food, getting training. Maybe they need their GED, maybe. Maybe they need to get vocational training. Maybe they'd like to get an education or a degree, but they don't have a means to do it. How can we help'em do it? Right? Whatever your. Your people group is, once you've identified, then how are we gonna train you to get better at serving that particular people group with other people of faith that are gonna join you? So that's the one question. And the second question, which is probably more important even than that one, is this one, which has to do with us making continuous progress as a believer until we take our final breath. And that is this question. All of you. This is a good place to close that all of us should be asking. Omar, you should be asking this. I'm asking this of myself, and I ask all of your listeners to ask this question of themselves. Think deeply on this. If I became the person that God created me to be, what would that look like? How do I chart a course towards making at least some progress at becoming that person? That's what our ministry is all about. So you're welcome to join us if you're interested.

Omar: 54:45

Amen. Amen. You know, I wanna thank you for sharing all that. Thank you very much for your time. And I pray that maybe some of these listeners that hear this, uh, interview, uh, they, if it, you know, God's placed it on their heart. They're serious about this. They will definitely look into, uh, Christian Chaplains and coaching org. They'll go on there and get more information about your ministry, uh, the process, the requirements, and, and all that entails. Uh, but with that, uh, would you mind closing this out in a prayer?

Jim: 55:13

Sure. I'd love to. Omar, thanks for having me today. This is a, this was a great conversation and I, I feel like I talked a little bit more than I intended to, but you kept asking me questions. That was a good chaplain of work right there, brother. You're asking questions.

Omar: 55:27

Thank you. Thank you.

Jim: 55:27

Yeah. Dear, dear Lord, I, I thank you for Omar and, uh, the life that he has led, the transition that you have led him through the change of heart and mind and attitude and mission in ministry. That has allowed him to be a genuine servant of Jesus Christ these days with a desire to help others make progress. I pray for the success of this podcast and his work in mission and ministry. I pray for him personally to be able to make that. Progress that will allow him to get his associates and his bachelor's and his masters and his board certification and all of those things, Lord, that's just gonna help him become the person that you're creating him to be as a chaplain and minister of the Lord Jesus Christ. Lord, we thank you for all of this. We pray for the listeners. We pray for those that are suffering bondage, that you break those shackles of bondage and set them free through Jesus Christ and in His name we pray. Amen. Amen. Amen. And

Omar: 56:24

with that, we're gonna get ready to wrap up. Uh, Matthew four 16 reads, the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death, light has dawned alongside my brother, Jim Kirkland, I'm, Omar Calvillo And we are Wrong To Strong.