"Raised To Be Violent" - & the Fight to End Permanent Punishment w/ Harry Peña

On this podcast interview I am joined by Harry Peña, founder of "Life Impacters Foundation. (LIF)"  He is also a partner of the Illinois Coalition to End Permanent Punishments. It was created as an organizing and campaign hub for people directly impacted by the criminal legal system to come together, build a movement, and lead and implement advocacy campaigns to end the impact of a criminal record following people long after incarceration. Harry spent 22 and a half years in prison. 

He shares stories about his childhood that are truly heart wrenching. Here is a statement  that he makes, that pretty much summarizes it all, "But being raised up in a house of violence,  when the scripture says you train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he gets older, he'll never depart from it. Well, there are two spectrums to that. If you train a child to be a killer, he's going to be a killer."  
On one occasion as a child, he witnesses his father violently beating on his mother and in that moment he picks up a kitchen knife and stabs his own father three times. This he recalls, was my first act of violence. This is just a sample of the various forms of abuse, torment and trauma that he will go on to experience which will create in him a hate for mankind in general.

This story delves into the transformative journey of overcoming traumatic pasts, gang life, and incarceration by finding redemption through faith, personal reflection, and dedication to advocacy. It emphasizes the importance of overcoming struggles, seeking justice, and supporting others in similar situations, ultimately working towards a brighter future free from permanent punishment and systemic barriers. 

https://www.lifeimpactersfoundation.org/

https://endpermanentpunishments.org/

Transcript

Omar: 0:15

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of wrong to strong Chicago. I'm your host. My name is Omar Calvillo and tonight I have my guest here. His name is Harry Pena. Uh, I met this brother through Ronnie Carrasquillo. I forget if he asked you to reach out to me or for me to reach out to you. I forgot how that went, but anyways, we were able to connect and, we were talking a little bit before just, there's been a lot of divine connections. I believe that God's been putting. People in each other's paths for a reason that only he knows but uh, like I was telling a brother I feels like like he's building an army in this season. I don't know why but That's what I've been seeing, but, uh, welcome to the podcast, brother.

Harry: 0:54

Thank you, my brother. I appreciate it and welcome everybody. My hope and prayer today is that somebody would be impacted about this conversation and, um, that we will just begin to move.

Omar: 1:05

Amen. Amen, brother. Uh, yeah. So, uh, we usually like started the beginning brother, you know, like all the guests that come here. Uh, I believe that the childhood plays like a big role. Like it's important to share about the childhood, you, those younger years, those, uh, for formative years, I guess we could call them because that usually when you see somebody, when they're older, you know, you understand what made them the way that they are, you know? So, Uh, but yeah, brother, if you could share, like, uh, well, where did you grow up at? What city, what, uh, maybe neighborhood. And then if you could describe it for those that they've never been there.

Harry: 1:39

Oh, yeah. Um, thank you for having me, brother. First of all, I want to thank God for this opportunity. Um, so I, I came out, uh, roughly around the humble park area. But my upbringing was more in the Wicker park. That's where everything happened as a youth. Um, you know, as a child, um, and just being able to, uh, just being alive today in spite of, uh, you know, what we talked about, about our youth and, uh, the things that have happened to us. I always say this, um, we are books. Every book has an intro and that intro, uh, is the beginning of the story. And some of us are looked at from towards the ending of our story. And so they're reading, they're only reading the, the back end. They really don't understand, um, the intro and the first chapter, second chapter of the book. So for me, uh, everything started when I was five years old. Okay. Um, I can recall it was a beautiful, um, a beautiful Saturday morning, May 7th, 1967. Okay. I just told my age, but don't, don't, don't think we're going to humble ourselves. Um, but, um, yeah, my dad is, uh, he got up one morning this morning and he said, told my mom, get him ready. I'm taking him out, and it'll be the first time my father ever took me out anywhere. And at that time there was five of us. So mom got me ready, took me out. And you know, I got my hair cut, got some clothes on me. Um, and he spiffied me out. And, um, so he ended up taking me to his bar. And this is the bar that he frequented. Um, and in the Wicker Park area. And, um, so he put me on top of the bar, the bar and told the bartender, watch me. And he went to the back. Um, and coming back from the back end of the, of the bar, he picked me up and he Uh, he walked me towards the back and opened the back door, there's a, a cot. Now, mind you, as I'm, as I'm, I'm going back, I'm looking towards the front. So when he opened the door and came in, I turned into the room. I could see that there was a cot and there was a woman and she was on the, on this cot and his bed and my father just took me and put me, uh, stood me up and he said, today I'm going to make you a man. And, um, I didn't understand what he was saying. So, but he unclothed me and this woman was naked on the bed and, um, and he picked me up and he put me on top of her and she had her way with me. And I remember distinctly, I understand what happened then and now what happened then. But as a child, I didn't, but there was a, there was a, um, a sharp, like a sharp, uh, sharp object that went through my being and I remember because I remember I started screaming and I was, I was, um, it was an intense. Like being tore, tore open in my, in my insides and, um, and I remember he, he just jerked me up and he says, that's not the way you do it. And he shook me and he slammed me to the chair and he, he said, this is the way you do it. And he began to have intercourse with this woman. Well, in our culture, in, in Puerto Rico. Um, in our generations, our forefathers, that's what our forefathers did to their sons. It was at 12 years old. I don't know what possessed my father to do this to me when I was five years old, but he did it in any way. But his story is, um, and we talked about his story was that's what his father did to him and his father's father's did to his father. And so it was this, this perversion. Um, that, um, for all intents and purposes, it trickled down through the generations. And, um, I was the youngest at five years old. And I, and I remember as he was putting his, my clothes on and I'm crying, he picked me up and he walked me out to the front of the bar. He put his knee down on, on, on the ground. He said, he looked at me. He says, if you tell your mother, I'm gonna kill you. That's the first time I ever feared my father. That's, that's, those are his words into my life. He And I, I, I was scared and I said, no, Papi, I, I'm not going to say nothing, but in Spanish, of course, right? And, um, That's when everything began in my life. That's where this, this hatred, um, for my dad sprung up because after that, um, it was just violence. Um, my father, um, was very abusive. He was a very violent man. And, uh, we felt the, the blunt of that, but more so my mom. My mom, my mom went through, um, 30 something, 33, 34 years of care, uh, with my dad. Um, and that's because of his drinking, cause he, you know, he drank, he was an alcoholic and did drugs and, um, that's, that's what his life revolved around, drugs, you know. Um, also. And so, um, the one night, my first act of violence, I want to go to that. I want to go to that because my first act of violence, and then I'll go back to just a couple of years prior to that. But being raised up in a house of violence, when the scripture says you train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he gets older, he'll never depart from it. Well, there are two spectrums to that. If you train a child to be a killer, he's going to be a killer. If you chat a chart, if you. Train a child in a way that's morally right. The child is going to be upright. He's going to honor his mother and father. Well, it swung, it just so happened that it swung on the opposite side for me. And so seeing what my mom went through in the, in the beatings and that, it was, I was eight years old and this one night my father, I came into the room and he was drunk and he said, he said, He woke my older brother and I, and, um, he's coming out and, um, I said, no, you know, I, I'm still scared cause I can smell the liquor on him. How old were you? You said at eight years old, eight years old at the time. And so, um, he got up and, um, he walked out the door. I went, when he walked out the door, I got up and I went to the door and I called him. Just pulled the door just slightly opened and I could see he was sitting on the table. My mom was getting him some food and, um, it was at that moment, something was said to my, he said something to my mom and my mom responded. My mom was an angel, you know, humbled a woman, very discreet, you know, soft, soft spoken. And, um, I don't know what she said to him. Um, but in his fury, he flipped that table over and he went at my mom and he picked her up. I could see my mom face up towards the ceiling coming down and he smashed her face down onto the floor and he got on top of her like if he was riding a horse and pulled her hair back and he took out his shoe and he began to beat her. That that right there when I look back at that moment, that's the moment that I hatred and anger entered into me. And, um, I remember I picked up the knife because serving him food. There was a knife that probably the sharpest knife that we had in the house. And I grabbed the knife and I stabbed him. I hit him three times. He swung his arm back and he hit me, knocked me up against the wall and knocked me out. So, I don't know how many hours it was, um, that I got up and I had this knot on the side of my head, probably half the size of my head. That's how hard he hit me. And I know that I was unconscious for some time. So when I got up, I looked and, um, at the moment I was petrified, you know, and I looked into the bedroom and his body half of his body was on on the bed and the other like if he were praying and There was blood everywhere and I thought I had killed him because that was my intent I didn't understand it then but that was my intent And, um, so I went into the house looking for my mom. I couldn't find my mom. And then, and it just so happened that I had gone into the living room and in between the living room and, uh, the sofa, my mom was in the middle in between. And I walked up to her and I said, mommy, mommy, you don't have to worry. Mommy, I killed them. And it was at that moment that she looked up and she said, don't say that that's your father. And when I looked at her, I was like, ah, and her entire face, was swole. I mean, he had broken her nose. He had broken her eye socket it to me It was it was like she was disfigured and at that night. She had a white vata on and it was all bloody and So it was it was that moment in time that that would change my trajectory in life Compounded by what happened to me when I was five what he did This was now, um, I was now in essence, uh, eight year old who hated his father and would do anything to try to kill him. So, um, let me go back now because these two next events really set up hatred for mankind. That was hatred towards my father. And, um, so I was seven years old and I was outside playing and I'm a kid. And so there's this, we lived on at that time on Potomac and Damon and you know, Spanish Lords were there. Oh, I mean, I'm sorry. Warlords were there. And I, I, I tell you a little bit about that. Um, and, um, I, I, I just, you On the fourth story. Cause there was an eight unit and we lived in the first floor rear. So the guy came down and you know, he said, did I want some candy? I said, yeah, I'm a kid who doesn't want candy. And so he said, come on, follow me. Went upstairs and, um, he said, wait at the door. I said, okay. And he brought out these candy. It looked like what I recognize now to me, moth balls, little white moth balls. And he gave it to me and I took one and I started eating it. And it was seems like within a minute, I was, I was, I was already like this and he snatched me and he, I had no, it's like, I had no control of my body. I was limp and he threw me onto the bed and I couldn't get up from the bed. I couldn't move my body and, uh, I just blacked out, but he ends up raping me. That's my first, my first encounter, uh, with, uh, With that violent spirit a perverted spirit. So he ends up raping me. I remember I was sitting he had brought me down I don't know how he got me down because I was knocked out And he sent me on the staircasing and I just remember in my head when I woke up I was in pain and I looked and I was bloodied. So he he hurt me and and now that that became That became for me, it was a sense of, you know, and this thing was, it was inside of me now and I was enraged, you know, and, um, so as a kid, you know, I, I look back, you know, and I look, how did I forget these things? Right. And, um, as, as a child, you know, how to compartmentalize stuff, put stuff away, you know, and it's easy because the innocence. And, uh, for me, I, I, I did that, you know, um, and I remember saying to myself, I'm gonna get older, I'm gonna get older one day and, and even towards my father, that's what my, my words with you to everybody, especially, I didn't have many male friends, you know, and I'll tell you why, um, but that, that, that violence, that anger, and, um, then I was eight years old. Now I'm an eight years old. This is right after this is before my mom. Uh, he did that to my mom and I was out, I was in the side of the house this time I was playing, you know, and that dude, so this, this, this, um, Latino, he came walking by and he said, man, I got these files you want them? And you know, I'm like, yeah, so I went to grab him and he snatched, he straight up snatched me up and put me in a hold and he threw me into this garage, he ends up raping me. So these are two instances in my life where now I had pure hatred for mankind. Didn't have many friends now, didn't trust. I was a loner as a kid, but you know, my act, the acts of violence that I was in action preparing myself for, I mean, I hated cats. Don't know why, but I would like those guys. I would tie them up from the hinds and I would put a ladder for them. And I'm, I'm lighting them up. I did dogs that way, cats that way. Um, and you know, I began to now cultivate this, what we would say, this, this violence. Um, that was in my heart, this rage and give it form because I am, as I grew up, I said, man, I can do this to these guys. And this is where that was leading. So now I'm, I'm eight years old. Um, and I'm, you know, on, on top of that, what my father did to my mom, that just let me, that set me on this course from eight years old. Um, I remember my first day of school, not the first day of school, my first encounter with a teacher that told me. That you're stupid and that you will never amount to anything. And the reason why she did said that, and it was between seven to nine, uh, nine years old. It was on that age. I don't recall exactly, but I could not understand for life for me. I could not understand North, South, East, and West. It would not, I could not comprehend it. It's because I was already messed up. I was already messed up. I mean, in light of the things that happened to me as a child, I'm still a child. I couldn't get it. Because mentally, I was in torment. Mentally, I was, I was, um, alive, I can say that, but dead. Yeah. And I could not, I could not comprehend, because the trauma that had occurred to me as a child. And that, that right there is what led me to Uh, on a journey, I hated school. I, I mean, as I got older, slapping teachers, I mean, I, I, I started slapping teachers around, I was just sharing this with my, one of my brothers, Freddie and I told Freddie, I said to Freddie, Freddie, listen, brother. Um, for, as for myself, um, you're taught wrong to do what's right. It's hard when you're taught what's wrong, because it's how you're raised. And I said, the things that I've done in life. I thought it was okay because that's the way I was raised. So for me to hurt somebody that was along the lines of what I was doing because I was hurt, hurt people, hurt people. Yeah, definitely. So, uh, that's the childhood beginning. That's the intro, um, and into a life of a, of a child who never had a chance. You see, when I say that they wanted to kill me as exactly, you know, at that time, God's hand was on me in spite of what happened to me, God's hand was on me because I should have been dead. And one of those moments was at the hands of my father. And um, I think I was nine years old and my older brother was 10. And um, no, I was much younger now.'cause Esther had my one zon little red one, Zon little bear on it. So it summoned seven years old. 6, 7, 8 years old, along those lines. Right. And my father came into the house and he said, Hey, get up and told my brother and I get up. We got. And this is my first encounter with, with a gun and my father, when we came out, uh, my father was at the mesa at the table and he had this gun on. I'll never forget it. It was a 25 seven shot nickel plated pearl handle. Uh, pistol or not a pistol, you know, a real, um, a pistol. And, um, he looked at my older brother and I, he said, today you die. And so my older brother and I started walking backwards and where I found my mama in between the sofa and the television, that's where we ended up being. And as I were moving back, we can't go back and hit the wall. So we slid down and my father picks up his chair. He's coming right to us and he's about two feet away from us. He just pointed a gun. I mean, Right where you're at foot and a half and he points the gun. He goes he just let off seven shots at that moment I can hear the gun the the bullets just going But he's pointing a gun right at me right in my face And how does he miss, this is why I said, you know, when God has his hands on you, no matter what man may try to do to you, when God's hand is on you, listen, the, we call them miracles. That's just God protecting what he, his investment in the future. And that's what I was an investment in, in the future, uh, for whatever he was going to do with me. Did that mean that I was going to be exempt from going through stuff? No. No, I mean, right after that in my, that's my first encounter with a pistol. First time I shot somebody, I was 10 years old and this is how I began. You know, as a, as a child, uh, you know, I, I got initiated into, well, not initiated, I was, I was a Peewee, you know, and, um, and, and that's when I was on Potomac and Damen, so I was already around the element and having those brothers, you know, um, Embrace me. Cause I never had a father. Although he was there in body, but he was not there. And, but those brothers, as I see it now, as a kid, you look up to them. You know, they said, my brothers, you know, and so the gang life and that, that, that all came into, into play, um, early on as, as a child.

Omar: 21:07

Right. And you said that the age of 10 going in there and what, what was the difference from these guys and your father? You know what, before we get there now that day that you stabbed your father, what was the consequences of that? Like, uh, once your dad, I guess. Got over the the drunkenness and seeing he was stabbed. Was there any like repercussions towards you? Like,

Harry: 21:25

no, he didn't put his hand on me. But what he did tell me, well, no, that's not true. That's not true. So. It was, it was, I don't know if it was a week later. He didn't say anything to me, first and foremost for a week, two weeks later. He didn't say anything. And then one day I had taken some food stamps from my mom, right? Cause I wanted, I wanted some candy. So I stood off and as a kid, you know, I had another guy with me and we went and got some, some candy. And when my mom ended up telling my dad and my father looked at me, he said, come here, he said, you take your mom's money. And I, I said, no, and he, it was so fast that when he hit me, I didn't see him, his, he lift up his hand and, and I just felt it. That's how fast it was. He knocked me to the ground and he looked at me and he said, um, you're a thief now. You'll be a thief. You get older and you go to prison for being a thief. Those, those were his words to me. So, um, that was the repercussion. Um, because he wanted to put his hands on me, but he knew that he was wrong. You don't, you don't do that to your kids. You don't do that to you, to your wife, you know? Um, and he couldn't look at me up to that moment and that moment gave him opportunity to get with me and he did. He, um, he, he, he put them paws on me and, um, yeah. So that was the repercussion and now he, and he told me, um, he told me there was another event that occurred. This is where rejection entered into my life. The first time I experienced rejection was, uh, Father, on a Christmas day. I can't remember what year it was, uh, 74, 75, something like that. And he brought toys for everybody and he got the oldest all the way to the youngest and I was the second oldest. So he gave my older brother a gift and he kissed him, told him, I love you. And he came to me. He says, I give you nothing. I said, cause you're going to try to kill me when you get older. And he passed me up. And then he went to my other siblings at the time. And I looked at him and I was just, I wasn't raised. And I told him, I don't need nothing from you. And I took off. That's the first time my, my first attempt running away, try to run away, ran into the snow, come back in, get a whooping for that, you know, and I tried by the time I was 12 years old, I was already out the house, you know, but that was life as a child, you know, and, um, acting out in this, this anger and this, this violence, this rage that was inside of me. Um, to no fault of mine, you know, but when you have your innocence stolen and, um, you're broken at the hands of the one that's supposed to protect you, a father, you know, and, uh, it's, uh, it's, it's not a, uh, it's not a surprise that at 15, I would already have a child. And that really put me, set me back that that's what really started turning my life. Because I always said that I would never be like him and I did I didn't I didn't hit women and That was another side of the spectrum. Um, there were times that you know, and I was a kid, you know Um, I see these guys, you know beating up on their girls, you know, their wives and when I older guy I get upset Supercharged, you know, and, you know, a lot of dirt that I did all the dirt. Let me put it that way. Everything that I've ever done in life, I did what I was alone. Can nobody could tell on me, but me and no one, no one ever. I can, how can you trick? I wasn't going to tell him and the one time I get involved, I lose my life. So the dirt that I did and the people that I hurt. I wanted to hurt him. I had a lust for wanting to hurt them, but that's how I was raised. Yeah.

Omar: 25:36

No, you know what? I want to ask you, cause I told you when you got here that I read a article, like a little bit, kind of a little brief of your testimony, but something happened at the age of 12, I believe that's when you attempted to do some, you, you, you want to tell that story?

Harry: 25:48

Yeah. So, so remember I told you that 12 years old, I left home. That's the time when I was already, I was already out. Um, so my relationship with my dad at that time, uh, it was, he would be chasing me down the street with a butcher knife or a ball bat. And then, or I'll be chasing him with a ball bat or a butcher knife. You know, I, at that time I didn't want to kill him, but I had access. And so, but this particular night, he, I remember it clearly. He has slapped my mom and I told him, I said, I'm getting older. I said, this is the last time you can put your hands on my mom. And of course that brought upon, you know, him chasing me up at the house. And, um, so this part, it was 1979. I'll never forget it. Uh, this was. The day before on New Year's Eve of 79 and, um, I had a, I had a 38 and I sought the light out on this street, Ancona Street. At that time we lived in Ancona and Ashland. And this is probably the smallest street that I've ever been on. Um, you try to park two cars, you can barely get a car through there. That's how small it was. So this, uh, this particular night, uh, my dad, um, up to this moment, I, for weeks, I have been watching my father, what avenues that he would take coming up, you know, from the bar and whatnot, and what, you know, his, his routes. And I had a down pack. So this particular night, uh, the day before new year's Eve, I shot out the lamp. So it was dark and I was, it was right in the alley. Uh, in the street and the gangway that we used to use when, you know, we would do our dirt. And so, uh, That particular night I shouted out the following New Year's Eve night. I waited for him and um, He's coming down the street and uh, I remember I cocked the handle back because this was a revolver and i'm looking and i'm thinking i'm gonna finally kill this dude And I was two with guys And never forget, um, he comes about 60, 60 to 80 feet away. And this is the first time I heard the voice of God. I didn't know then. And the voice said to me, Harry, don't do it. He's your father. And it seems like everything in my life paused in that one moment. Cause I didn't register it and I looked at the guy said, what did you say? Cause they're right by the cars, right? Not six feet away from me. We didn't say nothing. And I look, he's about maybe 20 feet. He's coming right to that. I'm about to pop him. And I hear his voice again, son, don't do it. He's your father. And a bolt it's like a bolt of fear or whatever hit me across my head. And I jumped up and I took off running that night. My father, God saved my father for me taking his life because you don't know if he was going to die that night. And I remember as I'm running, I turn back. I look back when I'm running and he's running the opposite side. And that night I was alone. And I couldn't comprehend what I heard at that moment in time. I was like, am I going crazy? You know, where, where did that voice come from? And, um, so my father was spared that night, but sure enough, I wanted to kill. And the way I, and the crazy thing is that one, one envisions, at least I did. I envisioned how I was going to kill him. I was going to torture him before I killed him. Because I wanted him to see me and look into my eyes as I put him, because that's how I envisioned taking his life. And, um, from that moment on, my life took a different turn, because I didn't understand, because I didn't know God.

Omar: 30:03

Can I ask you that? So you hear this. You feel that, that you said like a fear almost, but, uh, like growing up, was there any like God in your family on mom's side? Dad, like, was there any faith involved like growing up for you? So

Harry: 30:20

this is why I love my mom. My mom is no longer with us. She's with our father. Um, but the only one, the only one to ever talk to us about morals, about good, about God, what was my mom? And the strangest thing is this, is that Of course, as a child, you just don't understand. You have no, you can't consumption. You don't have concept of what God is. What is that? I don't understand that. And I remember I would lay on top of the table and I'll be like fascinated about what she was saying about God. And, um, But that was it. So growing up, I mean, there was this church group. We used to call them, um, uh, they, they were in the blue bus. We call it the blue bus, the blue bus church. And they would, Deanna, Indiana church, you pick up all these, you know, kids and. I never heard the word of God going there. I still never heard the word of God because they didn't, they kept us in a different space from the church. And I don't, I didn't understand it. I went to the play. I went there to have, at least try to have a good time. Cause I was a kid. So yeah, that's the only time. So knowing about God, no, there was a Bible. Um, but my mom, that was my mom in, um, but she shared what she believed.

Omar: 31:43

Okay. Right. So there may be some C's there now go going back to when you were 15, you said you had your first kid and I believe you said, uh, when I, when I, when I was reading that it changed you at that moment, like almost like change your life in a sense. Right?

Harry: 31:56

No, that's exactly what happened. Um, you know, when you're that young and you're, you're, you're pregnant, you still don't understand. You see, I realized today what I didn't realize then, of course, because I was still a child. I was growing up into a man's body, yet still a child because I. Um, and I spoke like a child, like I'm, I'm 15 years old and, but I'm a child trying to walk out a man's life, or at least to what I understood at that time. So, for me, um, when my son came in, I held him. I was in shock that no words to that I even to the day when I look back at that moment and I'm looking at this, this, this baby, I didn't understand. I could not understand what, what was before me, but inside I knew that it had changed me. And for the first time, I wanted to love something and that's what changed me because I didn't know love. And my mom, everybody knows mom's love. That's different, you know, but when you're looking for love from that, that, that father figure and you don't get it, you don't really understand love from a man's perspective. And for me, that was a defining moment because I looked at this baby. And I felt something, I was not cold, it was warm, and I didn't understand that feeling. So, uh, I look back at it now, I, you know, I know what it was. It was just the beginning of my birth process, you know, and, and love.

Omar: 34:01

So that, that birth process, like, what, what do you mean by that? Like, maybe because you felt dead before that or? Well,

Harry: 34:07

absolutely. You know, when you, when you're cold and you do things and you don't feel anything behind that, That's when I talk about dead men walking, and I'll use that term a lot. Dead men walking. Many of us were dead men walking. We just use a lot of things to try to fill the void. And, you know, either smoking weed, drinking, um, whatever, selling drugs, you know, gangbanging, whatever it was. Those are things to try to cover, to try to keep cover, you know, we're not key to try to keep you from not feeling anything, but that's exactly what it was empty.

Omar: 34:47

Okay. So you have your, your baby. You know, your gang involved, that do you continue after your baby, how, how does your life look like as you're 16, 17, 18, you know, like,

Harry: 34:57

so it was at that time that I, and instinctively. Instinctively. I knew that I had to work.

Omar: 35:04

You weren't working before. No,

Harry: 35:05

no, they, you know, the drug is selling acid selling weed. Uh, just started to sell cane, you know, start not heavy because I'm still a kid. Cocaine is fairly new. Okay. At that time, you know, and, um, and we're talking late seventies, early eighties. Yeah. So it was not like it's really, it was really out there. It was the beginning of it. And so, that situation with my son, that, that really caused me to see. Not only that I had to go to work, but I had now something to protect. And so I, there were nights when, and I recalled it instinctively. There were nights where, and I said, man, I don't need to be here. I need to go home and I will leave. And, there were nights in, you know, we'd go do drive bys. and, and I felt at that moment, I felt like I shouldn't be there because I'm thinking about my son, you know, and so I started to separate myself and that's exactly what ended up happening. I started to pull away, start hanging out in the neighborhood. I started staying, you know, and that's just being with my son more. So that I wouldn't have to be out in the streets

Omar: 36:23

right now at this point. Are you with the, with the son's mom? Are you guys trying to, you know, have a relationship there? Like, yeah, no, no. We're together. We're together.

Harry: 36:32

And, I just knew that I had to work for me. I had to work. Working was difficult or at least finding a job was difficult for me because nobody would give me a chance. I don't know what it was, you know, about me as a kid, you know, 14, 15 years old. I want, I want, you know, especially when my son came into the, I want to work, but it was that nobody would give me an opportunity. Maybe it was because I was just 15 years old. I should be in school. You know, um, but at that age, I already had dropped out of school. I was kicked out of eighth grade, sent to high school because not that I, you know, did the schoolwork, I didn't do no schoolwork. It kicked me out because I was that

Omar: 37:15

age.

Harry: 37:15

I was, you know, they were tired of me beating up on your teachers and, you know, hanging out, you know, and just acting like a kid. You know, some kid that didn't have no morals whatsoever. And that's what I was. I was that dude who was beating up one of the kids, you know, fighting other kids. Fighting was his passion. I got a lot of that when I was in grammar school. So I was in a fight. So, yeah.

Omar: 37:42

Okay. So now do you little by little get away from the gang life? Like how does that look at that? Was it easy for you like to, to leave or?

Harry: 37:50

You know what? Yeah. When I look back at it, it was, I just, I just, there were days that will go by and more days to go by. And I didn't care because I've, I wanted my son more than I wanted that. And that's how I, that's how I got out. That's how I got, well, you never get out. No, you didn't get out. No, you don't get out. And that's how I got, um, you know, I, I stepped away from the scene and that's how I say it. I stepped away from the scene.

Omar: 38:18

No, that wasn't. Is there a incident that maybe draws you back? Onto the scene like later on in life or

Harry: 38:24

my kid, my kid, brother, my brother, Eric, never forget it came on into the house. They just whooped him. Somebody just put their paws on him and a group of guys over there in this one park and I think he was seeing some girl and and Um, at that time I was already strapped. So I got up and put my clothes on. Where was it at? And I ended up going, I'm headed over there. Now, mind you, my son, he's my son's born. And how old

Omar: 38:49

is he at the time? Oh, you're your son.

Harry: 38:51

It's over a year. He's a year. Okay. A year now. And so I'm 16 years old. And I remember. I'm coming down. So I'm going to name streets. So I'm headed down. I'm headed on Ohio, Ohio Street. I'm headed up to Superior. These cats are on Superior close to Walcott. And it was at that moment that I'm walking. I had a black leather with a hoodie on. And my black leather, the, the, I had removed the pockets. They slid right into my hoodie and I had this 25 mind. You remember the 25, seven shot nickel plated pro handle. That's what I had. Your dad's my dad's. It was not his, of course, but it was one like, you know, and that's the, that's the gun that I, that I used. I, that's the gun that I, that I had. And I remember that night and that day. Um, it was already winter time, so there was a lot of snow on the ground and I'm, I'm walking and you go into tunnel vision and you begin to envision how you're going to do these guys. So I already had in mind how I was going to take these guys out. And so I'm coming up Wood Street, getting ready to make a left. I'm probably a house or two houses away from the corner or the bar that was right there. And I'm so in, and focused with what I'm going to do that unbeknownst to me, there had been a cop, uh, we call him walking tall. This is this white cop. He was notorious for beating up game bangers and, and whooping on us. And that's exactly what he did. So he, I heard a boom and I stopped and I came to, I was like, and the guy had the cop, the cop had his gun. The detective, he had a gun out, a Latino and a white guy. And he put the gun. Huh? And I have my hands, I put my hands up, I put him out of my jacket and he comes and he never forget it. The Latino grabbed me and he passed me over into the walking tall. We call him walking tall. This guy had him in 6667 white guy, you know, blonde hair, dirty blonde hair. I never forget him. He snapped me up from the back and he, in essence, he's just like lifting me up. And he, he smashed my face into the cop car, the narc car. And I just remember if I would not have just turned just a little bit, he probably would have smacked and broke my nose. Right. So he smashed me and then the Latino cop puts his hands in my leather and then he didn't feel any split off into my hoodie. And, um, he found a gun, the gun was already ready. I was ready. And, uh, he's, he looked at me. I'll never forget the look on his face because when, when he stuck his hand in there. And, um, he pulled it out. He turned my face this way. He looked at, cause he got me from my hair. He said, who did we just stop you from killing? Huh? Who did we just stop you from killing? He said, look, bro. He told his car, look, he was about to go kill somebody. And now of course I'm not going to tell him myself. And he smashed my head against the car and then they took me into the police car and they took me to the alley home. And I visited our home for pistols. Okay. Yeah. Two, three times I was in alley home. So that would, that moment right there, I, that was fearful. Cause I'm now, I'm now in, um, at the alley home on Hamilton street. And, um, I can't see my son. Man, I was hurting. It's like, it was this thing, man. And I remember I was in the room by myself and I'm crying. I'm crying father. I'm now I'm crying out to God, God, deliver me. Get, get me out of this. I want to see my son. You know, I'm not thinking the consequences of that pistol and what that can, you know, cause me. I'm not thinking like that. I just reacted out in emotion towards protecting my brother and anybody to tell you about my family. I protect, I'm the protector of my family.

Omar: 42:44

You were that, you said the second oldest. So that was already in here. Gotcha. So you, did you ever like, do some time where, or you just in and out the juvie, like in and out the juvie. Yeah. In

Harry: 42:54

and out the juvie. And I wisened up. I wisened up when I was in a juvie because at that time, when people don't know about the juvie was that at nighttime, the office will pop doors. And it's like these officers would, would, um, um, they get together. And they'll, they'll put guys to fight. No way. Yeah. And you, yeah, that happened all the time. It put the guys to fight, especially in the, in the shower stalls, you know, where they're out outside of the camera systems and that, and the showers are too, too, too, then, you know, you have to fight. Kids were in a, we were, they never pulled me out, but I saw it, you know, I knew what was going on.

Omar: 43:33

And would they just put like ops, like people from different

Harry: 43:35

gangs? And they'll bet on it.

Omar: 43:38

No

Harry: 43:38

way. These cops were, Hey, listen, man. Hey, come on, man. Those were rascals. Those dudes were rascals, especially when we were juvies. Man,

Omar: 43:47

way out, way out. Okay. Now, now going on in your story, I know like, Eventually later on you get drawn into something, even though you were trying to think, chill out at, at this time, right of your life. You want to head into that story now, or

Harry: 44:01

Well, you know, then you get 19, 20 years old and the nightlife calls you, okay, this is the, you know, the nightclubs and, and that was my scene. You know, now I'm working, I'm working, actually I'm working for the Board of Education. It just happened that I landed a job. I met a brother, and a brother said, man, I'm gonna help you. And, um, his father ended up getting me into, uh, into the board of education. Um, and I was a janitor. Mine, I'm 19 years old. I'm a janitor at Kelvin park high school. I'm a janitor at, uh, at, uh, um, these other high schools. And so I'm in my element, I'm in my element, you know? And, um, so it was during that time, um, that I started going out to the night life and on the nightclub, the women, and, um, just, I met this Philly. I was 24 years old now. And, You know, made enemies because, you know, I, I loved women at the time, you know, and didn't care who it was. You know, and pulling women from that, that, that stupid stuff, you know, um, not understand that there's four, 4 billion women in the world, you know, I'm, I'm chasing at the skirt that, you know, belong to others. And so I got myself into trouble a couple of times. I got myself into trouble guys want, and even, you know, they did it off into me. And only by the grace of God, again, God has hands on me and let nobody take my life because there are moments in this walk, uh, in this story that they would, they had me, they had me left, they could have killed me. You know, and for whatever reason, even when I reflect back on it now, I know that it was God that kept him from, from doing that. Amen.

Omar: 45:46

And, okay. You're getting yourself in trouble with these women, but then eventually you get lured into something, I believe. Right.

Harry: 45:53

So, yeah. Um, so I had snapped my ankle and I was out of work. I was six weeks. I had, you know, fractured my right ankle. So I was on disability pay. Right. It was not, not what I'm accustomed to making. At the time in, in, in 99, I'm making 20 an hour, 24 an hour is what I was making. And that's unheard of back then. That's a lot of money. But when you don't have, when you don't have someone to train you on money, how to, um, you know, how to use money. And for me, it was just like that, but I was in the drug scene too. So I was dealing drugs still at the time. I was doing drugs and so I'm making money. I'm keeping money, but I'm spending a lot of money. So I met this Philly and, um, I had snapped this ankle, uh, while I was with her and I needed to make some money because the lifestyle that I was living was not measuring up to the monies that I now had. And so I got involved in this, um, in this plan. And, um, I'll never forget the moment. Um, you know, we, we, it was a, a, a crime that took the life of an individual. That's not how it was supposed to be. Um, and it was, you know, it was a Brinks job and, and it was supposed to be a whole lot of money. And for me, that's what I was thinking, the money. But, uh, our brother ended up losing his life and. That night I lose mine, you know, don't want to go into it, you know, but someone lost their life. And this individual that I think about day every day for the past 30 years, this in this individual, somewhere in my day, I think about him. I think about his family, I think about his children, you know, his mom and dad. And so. It's part of what I why I do what I do today, um, and the work that I'm involved with now, um, to help our people, you know, come out of that, you know, Um, because when you're a lot, when you're dead, dead, people don't mean nothing to you. It's when you're alive, you know, when stuff happens to your life and you look at individuals and you begin to value life because you have life in your hand. And that's what happened to me. My little one calls me to value life now because I saw how beautiful it was through him. So now my life is different. You know, I'm, I'm moving in a different space. And so that death, it caused me to lose my life, but it made me vulnerable. It opened me up to the value of life.

Omar: 49:10

You know, I could ask you something. I believe, uh, I know that going back, that incident with your dad, when you were getting ready to take his life, you heard a voice and if I'm not mistaken, in this incident, when you guys were getting ready to do this, you I believe you, you heard him again, right? So, so we're on

Harry: 49:27

our, so we're on our way to this, to this spot. And, and we're in the van and it's one of those older vans is 1976. It's got the bubble in the back. And I can recall as I'm, there were no seats other than the front passenger and the driver's seat. And I'm sitting down up against the door and I'm looking up at that bubble and I can see the top of houses. And it was at that moment, I heard the same voice that I heard when I was 12 years old. He said, son, don't do it. You'll be gone a long time. And at that moment, there was an anxiety that came over me. And I, I, I, I needed to get out. I, I, I didn't want to be in that van no more. And, but this, I couldn't run, I couldn't run like I ran when I was a kid. Yeah. And, um,'cause we all have pistols and all I, all I remember was in my mind I'm saying, I gotta get out. I gotta get out, I gotta get outta this. On, on, we, we get there. And nothing's right. Everything is wrong. there were, there were individuals that were there that shouldn't be there. And I just remember telling the guys, let's go. This is not going to work. This is not going to work. And, um, one of the guys said, man, we came to do a job. We're going to do it. And I said, no, this is not going to work. Let's go. And I remember I, I sat back and I sat back, you know, I had to change now positions. What I originally went to go do, I was no longer going to do. And, the brother, the brother had pulled the gun out on me and said, you came to do a job. You're going to do it. I said, I'm not going to do any. I, you know, he had the gun right this smack in my face. This is the gun that was used to kill the individual. And so now I'm looking at the barrel. I got a nine mil on me. And I'm looking up at the, at the dude, but I can see in his eyes, I can see that, that, that coldness, that darkness in his eyes. And I knew that in that moment, that he was serious, that he would put that bullet in my head. So I gave up my gun and I threw my hands out. I said, man, and then plans changed and now I would not be the first to enter into the spot. I will be the last one. And, as, uh, as these guys entered in, I went, I went, you know, I went to go take off, but I heard the gunshot, bah!, I stopped and then I just took off running. And when I look back, one of the brothers had the gun. I come back, come back, enter into the spot. And I see this brother, he, he's laid out and, uh, I'm in shock. I'm in total, I'm gone that day. That moment was, I was, I was not in my body and all, because all I can hear was I couldn't hear anything. It was, it was numb and I was numb. My being was numb. And, but what I'm looking at is someone bleeding out. And, if the cameras were working at that time, they would have caught everything that happened in that moment. They would have saw, they would have saw my actions, you know, in that moment. And after that, a week later, um, they came and got me at my school because I worked at the school. And so, um, I was at the third one down. They got, and when they got me and, um, I know I lost my life. The crazy thing is this, that entire week I was going to work. I had my nine mill. I had a nine mill. I was working, I was walking on my nine mill. Every day and I'm saying, man, you're not going to take my life. The one we're going to shoot it out. In my mind, I'm thinking, I know that the cops are coming. We're going to get, you know, they're going to, uh, they come to me. We're going to get it out. And that whole week went by. I had my pistol at the job and the following Monday, I said, man, I'll leave the pistol home, get to the job, 11 o'clock. I was come walking through the door. I go for my gun. I don't have it. And that's the last day I saw the streets for 22 and a half years. Wow,

Omar: 54:05

man. So you go in there now, going to go in obviously. And then to prison, do you like, like go straight to the gang? You're still like affiliated as you go going in. But how does that look? It has, that's

Harry: 54:16

funny. Um, so mind you, so what I didn't tell you about, you know, my childhood, when I was 15 years old, I attempted suicide because there was a moment in my life that I didn't want to live no more. And. I, I, I bear the scars of it. I tell, I tell the story today about trying to take my life because I didn't want to live no more. I was, I was 15 years old and I was tired. Now my son was born, but it was something that happened. I don't recall what had happened, but I just, I gave up. It was a moment that I gave up, slipped my wrist and I'm bleeding out. My older brother came to that cause I was living alone with the mother of my, uh, my son with the three of us. And I just. You know, I was done. And so it was my, it was, uh, my brother and, uh, and, uh, his, uh, a childhood friend, the only one of the only ones that I had, they broke down the door and they, they rushed me to the hospital and I lived, of course. Um, and, uh, God had his hand on me. And so, um, I'm in the county jail now and we're facing the death penalty coming through the door. We're facing the death penalty. And, I remember I'm division six and you've been a division six. You know, they got the pillar right before you go down to the lower deck. You got the pillar right there. It was just beautiful. Big boat. They wouldn't do a window. It was on a Saturday. Uh, this is October 21st. Um, 1991. And I'm in my mind. I'm thinking that they're going to kill me. Oh, who did the state? Oh, the state. Yeah, because, um, they were in my mind. I'm thinking they're going to kill me because they wanted to give us a death penalty, because that's what we were facing coming in through the door. At least that's what the prosecutor wanted. And so, I'm, I'm sitting there and I'm contemplating, I'm not going to let these people kill me. Now mind you, I've already attempted to suicide. So for me to think about taking my life, I didn't think twice about it. I'm already imagining in my mind how I'm going to do it. And, um, the shower stalls, they had the showers there. And I had to, at that time we didn't, we weren't in cells. It was a time when the, the county jail was overflowing and they had us, uh, and, and the day room sleeping in the day room.

Omar: 56:42

What would they have like cots or just, no,

Harry: 56:43

no, no cots. It was straight on the floor. And, um, and, uh, I'm thinking, man. I'm not going to let these people kill me. So I'm envisioning how I'm going to take my life. And it was at that moment that I heard a voice and that voice said, you cannot love God and love man for you love one and hate the other. All I remember was instinctively. I knew that I had to get out. So I went on my two rappies and I, man, I get me out. I got to go. I got to get out, get out. And a few hours later, you know, I got worked and I went from one cell to the The, the, the door open, the next door cell was open. I don't know whose cell that was. I just knew that I fall into the cell. Somebody slammed the door behind me. And that's when I gave my life to Jesus Christ. Right after that, that was the beginning of my walk with Christ. And, and, and when I reflect back on that time, I remember that after I gave my life to Christ, I don't remember much. I just remember I was in the lower deck. Uh, in the corner and I had the free side, I had my face in the pillow and that's where I for three days and I call it the three days of darkness because I don't remember nothing about those three days, nothing at all. And after coming out of that through those three days, I came out and I'm looking into the day room and I walk up to this table and there's his brother that's sitting there and there's a book there. I said, who's is that? He said, that's yours. And I picked it up and it was a Bible. That's the first, the first book that I had when I was an inside. And that's my first Bible. And I, I read that book. I ate that book and I slepped on that book and I didn't put it down. And for 22 and a half years of my life, I walked with the Lord.

Omar: 58:41

Wow. So man, you, you got saved in the county. So once you hit the joints, you already.

Harry: 58:48

I'm a neutron now, right? I was going to ask you that. How was that experience for you? Cause I know there's like protection and being plugged, you know, as you go through the joints and all that, so now neutron not being affiliated, how was that experience for you as you hit the joints, you know, like, so, so Stateville that was the hardest, you know, um, Because I have, I had, you know, I had a, a rappy who didn't think too highly of me.

Omar: 59:12

Real quick, how much time did they give you? I know you, you said you were looking at the death penalty, but what ended up being the, the sentence you got?

Harry: 59:19

So, so they ended up giving me 45 years. And they said, they said cop out for it. I said, no, you're going to have to give that to me. And they ended up giving it to me. You got to give me a lot more, right? They got to give me a natural life. Um, but they ended up giving me 45 and I did 45, 22 and a half years. Okay.

Omar: 59:37

So now you're in state bill and you said, uh,

Harry: 59:39

that was the hardest part. Coming in, you know, cause now my son, I lost my son. I said to myself that I would never do to my son what my father did to me. And one of the things that I looked at back when I was, I reflect back on it. Now I left my son. So it was not there for my son. Just like my father was never there for me. And that, that was, that was the hardest, that's the hardest thing right there, not being able to be with my son. And I spent two and a half years in the county, in the county jail, and there were stories there of how God just, You know, God just, he just revealed himself to me in the beginning. He revealed himself to me, um, and who he was to me and what he would be for me. Not only my protector, you know, and I, and I have to tell the story. So, so I'm in divisions, uh, division one now B2. And, um, it's, it's unheard of that a neutron gets a table. Cause those are set up for the mobs and we all know that. So I'll be too. Um, I don't know how it happened. I just saw it happen one day, I grabbed the table. Uh, when I got there, when I first got up, pulled the table and I said, I didn't know that, you know, at the time I'm still fairly new, but I was new, um, six months in. And then they, they move us over into, um, division one, you know, the max. And so. I've got a table and I put my Bible down and I'm reading my Bible. Nobody ever bothered me. Nobody ever said anything to me. It just became known that that was his table. So unbeknownst to me, there are people in the gallery who knew me, brothers that knew me, and and I didn't think much about that. It's just that I was so in, in, involved in the word I. All I wanted was the word of God. Get up in the morning, throw his roll, grab the table all day, lock up, come back out, end the word. And I just began to. It just became, the word became a part of me. And I just began to share the love to the word with my brothers. I don't care if you're a Muslim man, it didn't matter if you were, you know, black, white, pink or orange, I just want to share a little bit about what God has done in my life. And so in that, in the unit, I believe that it was well respected, you know, and so nobody bothered me. That's crazy. Nobody ever bothered me. And, um, until one day I met this brother, uh, Mikey B, Mike B, never forget him. He was not, not plugged, but he was a fighter and, but he liked to gamble and he gambled, you know, with the guys on the, uh, on the unit. And, um, I remember. He had gone into it with one of the chiefs. I don't know if it was a vice Lord Or BD BD. Yeah, so I remember we got up it was lock of time and I said to him Mike Alone cuz he's one that I ministered to

Omar: 1:02:37

I

Harry: 1:02:37

shared the gospel with And he was right next door to me and I remember he said, man, you're right. You know, and he got caught up in a moment, you know, when he got into this confrontation with, you know, uh, with one of the chiefs and they were all gambling and, um, we, they call lockup, we go to lock up. And, um, all I remember was. I'm in my boxers and I love to draw. So I was drawing in the cell and, um, during count time and those role, blah, blah, and I hear, I hear this rumbling going on and Mike might be, uh, in the cell. So I get up and I moved the curtain over when I moved the curtain. dude stole on me, hit me, the punch didn't hurt. Well, what it did was knock me. It knocked me going backwards and I smashed my head up against the bars because in division one, it's bars. And I slammed my head up against the bars and I landed in between two beds. At that time, they got with me, three brothers got with me and they were, they were, they were trying to do some hurt to me. but I was in the bed and I was covered with my hands, but they were trying to work me. And he did for all intents and purposes. They got me. So here comes the officers and they're rolling, they're rolling down the gallery and they're making sure that, you know, who's hurt, you know, they're checking self and they see me, I'm laid out. So they came and got me. They, they took me downstairs to an infirmary and whatnot. And, um, they tell me, man, we're going to move you out. I said, you're not going to move me. I ain't gonna send me right back to where I came from. And so that was, you know, a fight trying to get back to where I was at. So I get there and, um. This is God. When God has his hand on you, whatever he allows to happen is for his glory. And I remember I get back to the cell, a couple hours later I get back to the cell, cause I got this knot in the back of my head. And, and I go to praying. I get on my knees and I'm weeping. I'm weeping before my father and I said, why'd you let them hurt me? Those are my words to my father, and my father said, no one would ever put their hands on you again. Those are his words to me. That's what I heard. So, his hand is upon me, his word is now with me. Mind you, in 22 and a half years, nobody ever put their hands on me, but they wanted to. You know,

Omar: 1:05:02

gotcha. Okay. So you're, you're, you're making it through. Let me ask you, I know we're talking earlier on how you were able to minister to some guys in there, even started building relationships with some of these guys, you, you want to talk about how that was for you in there, even with people that are not serving God.

Harry: 1:05:17

Well, yeah, you know what, when you, again, when you have the respect of people, cause you know, you know, you're walking, this is the way you're walking, but that was natural to me. You know, don't give me one of the people that tell you I have my own brothers come up and we're in a Bible study and, and I don't know what was wrong with the brother, brother. I don't know. He was uptight that day. I don't know what happened. He got up and, you know, when you, when you've gone through the fire and people call you bees and, you know, all this to your face and, you know, even spit in your face, you know, and you, you know, you take and say, father, he doesn't know what he's doing. That's my, that's my mantle was father. He, they don't know what they're doing. That's how I live my life. And so it just, this particular night we were having Bible study and the brother snapped off and, uh, I don't know what he had against me and he, and he tried to come at me and my own brother in Christ now. And, um, and, and I looked at him and I just remember telling him, I said, bro, what have I done to you that will cause you to want to come at me in that manner? Whatever it is, I'm sorry. I brother broke down. That brother broke down. He didn't know how to answer that. Shut him straight down. And that's how I live my life. You know, uh, whatever said, whoever said, man, bro, my bad, whatever it is. I'm sorry. That word. I'm sorry. It's

Omar: 1:06:40

power in that, right?

Harry: 1:06:40

Power and shut people down. So the way I live my life on the inside was that was that way. That's how I live my life. I live my, you know, my perfect love. I absolutely not. No, we all deal with it. Everyone deals with masturbation on the inside, but the books and whatever, whatever they're into, you know, I'm a man. I came from that. These are still things that I'm, I'm working on in my walk with Christ. You know, and, for me, it was, it was maintaining a holiness that God had given me that I never experienced before in my life. And that's how I wanted to walk my life. I wanted to walk out. I wanted to walk, uh, in my, in my, in my walk with Christ, the way others did in scripture, and, and I believe that it could be done, you know, but are we frail? I tell people all the time at best, at best, mankind is frail. At best that's mankind. Now you add the Holy Spirit, you add the sauce of the Holy Spirit. Then we can do all things through Christ. Jesus strengthens us when I'm talking about the man part at best, we're weak. We're frail. And until we actually accept that and say, okay, then we come into relations with Christ and we know what we need. Yeah. And, and that's the key is to know what you need. You know what you need. That means you have to be open with your father. He knows. I remember, uh, this is my experience with, and I'm, I, I keep it real. My moment with masturbation. Uh, I was walking in the yard, uh, in Dixon and, I was fighting against that because in my mind, I didn't want my mind to, I didn't want to use my mind in a way that was evil because I knew my father was looking at me. He was looking at my mind. And I remember. One day, I was sick to my stomach and I went out to the yard and I put my hand and I'm walking, I'm crying. I'm around by the gate, the back end by the gates. And I'm talking to my father. Father, forgive me. You know that you, you know, I don't want to do this. I'm tired. I don't want to do this father. And I hear his voice and he says, you're lying. And I remember those words when I, those words entered into my spirit, my soul. I, all I remember is that I hit the floor or the ground. And I remember I'm on the ground and I'm weeping. I'm weeping on the ground. I'm saying to myself, I knew in that moment that God was right. And I was wrong. It was in that moment that I knew that I had been lying, not just to him, but to myself. And it was that moment I told him, father, these are my words to my father. Forgive me, father, forgive me, because I love that thing more than I love you. And it was that moment that I was separate. I was delivered because my father says, come to me in what in spirit and in truth. And I, in that moment, I experienced what it is to come to him in spirit and in truth, but he had to, he had to unveil, unveil me and allow me to see who, who I was and what I loved. And then I told him, I'm sorry, father, because I came into this relationship with that maleta with that, with that, you know, that baggage. And then it was at that moment that I gave it to him and he delivered me, set me free from it.

Omar: 1:10:07

You know what scripture came to my mind of these people. They praise me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Right? Like, Oh God, you know, uh, now you're lying. Like man, the heart that we, we could confess. We could say, man, I can sit here and say, man, I love Jesus. I love God. Yeah. But God knows, man, where that heart's at, you know,

Harry: 1:10:25

we can say that. And then we go hit a lick, right? It is. I deal with a lot of brothers now, you know, and, and when you're immature, you're immature, right? And I, and I tell them, keep it real with your father. It's not like your father is in heaven, sitting down going, Oh, you just did that. Oh, that's nasty. No, he's not like he knows. The Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in every way, every way. So he can relate to us. Our thing is saying, okay, you know, you got me. You just, you just touched on something that you dislike and you want me to dislike it. I says that I got to see it the way you see it. And it took God to tell me that you were lying. Not that I'm a liar, that I am a liar, but that I was lying totally different,

Omar: 1:11:11

you know, going back to some of you mentioned earlier about the words, right? The, the, the tongue, we gotta be careful to confess over ourselves, right? Like as a liar. That's right. Instead of a moment of lying. That's right. And

Harry: 1:11:22

what God does in that moment, he'll allow you to go to that moment so that he can love you in that moment. This is not a, one of those, when God hates me, God loved me. And in that moment, he loved me. He says, you're pitiful child. You're pitiful. But I got to do this because I need to, I need to touch that thing and let that let you know that I don't like that. And then, um, and you know, and, and that's what happened. And it's only when I got real with the father and we as men, one of the things that we like to do, we like to put that sauce of cover up reality is that we got to get vulnerable with God and it's not to his, it's not to our death or demise. It's for God's glory to for him to reveal his power and authority in our lives because he came to do quite a few things. But one of, he came to deliver us from the powers of darkness and translate us into the kingdom of his dear son that he did, but we had to walk that out. And for me, it was a walking, I was by faith. So I say to all my brothers, keep it real with him. It's not like he's going to be all tore up about it because he sees you masturbate, you know, or watch pornography. It's not like he he's, you know, and, uh, Oh, no. Cause he understands the weakness of man. He, we, he understands. That there's an enemy who hates us, who hates him. And that's trying to use us to hurt him, his creation for me. I'm no different than any other man. Everybody's tempted. Everybody's tempted. No one is exempt from the temptations of lust, whether it be pornography, whether it be masturbation, whether it be adultery, fornication, no one is exempt. Everybody will be tempted. And one shape, fashion, or form, they'll have to face that because that's a part of the process and walking out your faith with God.

Omar: 1:13:14

Going back to something you mentioned earlier, I think before we started recording about our cross, you mentioned something about how we got to carry our cross, right? This walk of faith is,

Harry: 1:13:23

well, listen again, and thank you for bringing that up because it goes right into what we're this next part of our conversation is that is this. When we received Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, that was a death warrant. That was a death warrant to us. But isn't that what the Bible says? You're a crucified Christ. Nevertheless, you live yet. Not I but Christ who lives in me So and those that named the name of Christ, they have died to sin for as much then as he are have Suffered in the flesh as Christ has suffered in the flesh arm yourselves Likewise with the same mindset because he who has ceased from sin has ceased from sin you suffered Suffering is a part of your walk with Christ. If you don't accept suffering And, and let me be clear about what I'm saying and your walk with Christ, the moment that you receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you're going through a process from infancy. And so you work your way up to a manhood. The Bible didn't say that you should always be a child. When you became a man, you put away childish things. He expects for us to grow into manhood, uh, spiritually. And that means we discern. Good from evil, righteousness and unrighteousness that's in the book of Hebrews. It talks about that. It's all wherever we're forever growing, being, perfected and matured, uh, through the cultivating process of purging fire, who, who doesn't touch fire and not, not feel it. So when he says, take up your cross, that cross is your best friend.

Omar: 1:15:02

Hmm.

Harry: 1:15:03

And people don't, people see that cross as, as, man, I don't want to go through that. I don't want to, we're not living in this world to stay in this world. We're passing by in this world so that we can live with our fathers and with our father in eternity. So what we go through here is just a process of being purified. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will purify us. It's true. The scriptures, the work of the Holy Spirit is to not, you know, to, to, and the book of John talks about it. The work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal unto us sin, reveal unto us righteousness and, uh, to, uh, of course, and to keep us right. Um, and that's what he does, but we have to pick up our cross. And that means that there are going to be times when you are facing yourself because your worst enemy at times. It's you. And when God unveils and reveals that it's you, that's suffering. Suffering is good, because there are some components to suffering of which every, uh, prophet, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, uh, King David, everybody. That's ever, uh, sought the face of the Lord has gone through the process of a fire. I call it suffering. Uh, Moses, Abraham, especially those two though, those, those guys really walked that walk and their faith was aligned to God, but that cost them a great deal of suffering. And if we're not suffering, we're not in a space of suffering, then we have to question ourselves, where am I at? Because if life is hunky dory and I'm enjoying life, well, wait a minute, I gotta, I gotta ask myself, where am I growing at? Am I stunted somewhere? Have I accepted being conformed to this world? And so now I'm moving along the lines of the world and not along the lines of the Lord. Because mind you, if you're rolling with the world, You're going in direct opposite of the lord and Anybody knows you're going upstream that's hard And that's what we're doing. We're going upstream and it's always going to be difficult. So we have to embrace Our moments of suffering, because that's what brings us closer to the father, Jesus Christ in the garden of Gethsemane. And he was the greatest example of this. The Bible says that he was, he was, um, in essence, he was so much in agony that it was great droplets of blood that was coming out of his face. And it's been proven scientifically that that can happen. And what happens is that such is the agony. Agonizing that your blood cells in your cells and yourself, they burst. That's how intense this, this moment for Christ in the God of Gethsemane was. Well, he went through that. He said, father, remove from me this cup, not once. Not twice, but three times and it was at that moment that he didn't hear from the father that he knew okay father I accept the cup. Everybody is called to drink from the cup of suffering It's either you reject it or you don't if you reject it you'll suffer But there will not be a growth to that But if you accept it and see it for what it's worth as part of your process of growing the sooner in the better You didn't get out and that's, I like to look at it from that perspective because you passed the test in the first time. You don't have to go through it again, but suffering is a catalyst that brings you before God. It breaks you So when you go to him, you know that it's him that you are in need of and that you need comfort from But he's your father That's how we're supposed to come As children to him, when we're in that state of suffering, every, everyone, everyone, all the way up to Jesus Christ and past them, the disciples. I mean, can you imagine the apostles, what they went through, being uh, thrown in boiling water and, and, Hey, come on, man, come on. No, we, we have to accept our sufferings as a friend. And when we do that, that process is made much more easy. Cause then we understand that it's not for our, it's not for our evil, but for our good, because the Bible does talk about in the book of, uh, I think first Peter or, or, uh, first John, where it talks about, you know, if God disciplines you, it's for the purpose of producing righteousness. Yeah. That's what it's for. So he does discipline his children because we're not bastards. The Bible said we're not bastards. So he does for all intents and purposes, allow things to come into our life to mold us, to purge us, to heal us, to strengthen us, to empower us, and most importantly, to build our faith. I said to you earlier today, I'm I'm blessed to know that you're walking you put feet to your faith because that's not always easy And that's to everybody in our in our community that names the name of Jesus Christ. Our walk is not easy It shouldn't be easy because if it cost him suffering it's ought to cause us some because he tells it pick up your cross I don't know of anybody picking up the cross to say, Hey, we're having a good time. No, the cross is meant for one thing. And one thing only suffering,

Omar: 1:20:28

man. You know what? Thank you so much for sharing that, man. Cause I bet you there's people that are listening and they look at suffering as God not being in their life at that moment, or man, maybe I'm doing something wrong. But unfortunately, I believe there's a lot of people that see. Christ or Christianity or being a follower as a life of man. Once I come to Christ, it's going to be a life of comfort. And if I'm not comfortable, there's gotta be something wrong. God, you're not meeting your end of the bargain in a sense, right? Like, man, my life is supposed to be better. It's supposed to be easier. Like, but everything you just mentioned, it's, it's, it's part of what should be in our walk of faith of. Picking up that cross and he said, we're going to suffer. So thank you so much for sharing that. Cause I don't think we really dived into, into this subject at all. Like as far as in depth, as much as you just shared, but

Harry: 1:21:29

let me give you an example. Let me give you, I'm going to give you a natural example of suffering. You have children, right? Yes. So recall when you're, when your daughter boy or girl,

Omar: 1:21:42

uh, I have two boys and my daughter, yeah, she's, uh, 19 now. Yeah.

Harry: 1:21:46

So you're firstborn. It's a boy

Omar: 1:21:48

girl. My firstborn is a girl. Okay.

Harry: 1:21:51

So when she came into this world, you held her. The first thing you did when she came into this world was you put the milk to her mouth and she was, she was drinking milk. And that's the way of the Christian. I'm going to give you a perspective about Christianity. So that you understand it in the light of a child, a natural child and it's process of growth. So we get the word in us. I call that we're in, in a marriage, in a beautiful wonderland of marriage. And it's our father in us and we're excited and we're like, we can't be defeated and God loves us. And, and, you know, we're floating in air and all that's that, that, that, that love affair, right? Yes. So now the child is probably six months old, seven months old. And what begins to happen? The child begins to cry. Why? Because it's hurting. Why? Because now the child begins to teeth and anybody knows that has a child. When that, that baby begins to teeth that is that the teeth are coming out of the gums and is breaking through. And the child is in. Serious pain. All you gotta do is look at it. If you recall that child is screaming up and, and the child they, they can't be comforted. And that's, that's, that's the way of the Christian you see. The teeth have to go, you have to go, the child has to go through that process with the teeth, not because the teeth are hurting the child, but because the teeth are going to help to ensure that the life of that child, the child continues to grow because it can't always be on milk. Yes, the child cannot always live on milk. Eventually, it's going to have to eat food, but it has to have teeth in order to do so. That's no different than the child than the child of God. Emphasis, put the milk in him. And eventually you go through the teething process. Every Christian goes to the teething process. And it's, it's for the purpose of us being able to, as the Bible said, eat meat. The word of God says you have some those that drink milk, but then you got to grow up so that you can eat Meat meat eat the meat of the word and essence So I use that child a lot in my discussions when I talk to individuals So that it can comfort them in knowing it's okay to be in the space that you're in because it's a part of the process It's a natural spiritual process that every every every child must go through but not that it's a child to stay As a child, the eventually child's got to grow up, but it needs the nutrients from what it's eating because it has chompers to eat it. But we are no different in the scriptures. We have to eat the word of God in order for us to grow. But it's the experiences of suffering that causes the breakthrough. So us and each time we go through the process of suffering. It's for the part of perfecting our faith in Him and trust in Him. Right.

Omar: 1:25:00

That's, that's so profound because it is, it's in those moments of suffering where We're really drawing onto the father, calling out to him and he's doing something in us. And once we come out of that, our faith is definitely stronger. So when we do face something else, like, God, you brought me out of something that I didn't think I was going to get out of. And let's go, let's, let's, let's face the next challenge. You know, like it definitely is a strengthening of our faith for sure.

Harry: 1:25:31

And that's what it's for is for building up. So as we get older, you know, when we get older, then we make wise decisions is about. Um, you know, siding with Christ and then we look at sin, we look what the world is offering and you know what God is offering or what he already has offered. And his his is already done. I gave you my son so that you can have relationship with for eternity point blank The world wants to give you of course a momentary pleasure But god has eternal pleasures and that is being in his presence It's nothing more beautiful than to be in his presence worshiping him and we get a glimpse of that A taste of that when we're in services when we don't Break that, that bond of, you know, uh, coming together and, and, and fellowshipping with the brotherhood. Cause the Bible says, do not separate yourself from, from the flock or from the body, you know, no different. It's in those moments that we find ourselves in worship, you know, in corporate worship that we experienced his presence and he gives us just a taste of what's going to come.

Omar: 1:26:40

Yeah, man, man. Hey brother. Now, uh, I know you mentioned, I believe 22 and a half, right? You did 22. Now, eventually I want to get into what you're doing now. So maybe you take us through the process of like. Is there like a story, that you want to share from in there that maybe ties into the work you're doing now, or what led you into what you're doing now? I guess, like, let's go through that transition from in there to what you're like currently doing, you know?

Harry: 1:27:06

Well, I, so I spent a lot of time in my word, um, 16 hour days in my word, no joke, three, four hour, five hour in prayer. That's the way I was, but it was God preparing me because when I came home, What I had been praying for, being prepared for, was going to get me over this momentary, this time of, I would say it was a time of darkness. Coming home, nobody would hire me. So on the inside, I was being prepared to stay close to Him, in spite of what I would be facing when I came home. Cause I didn't know what was, you know, coming home, what I would be facing. And so, um, first couple of years, of course, you know, there were no hire. Nobody wanted to hire him. I was hired one time and I was fired. And within an hour, two hours when the background came back, Hey, no, you got to go do give us back all our stuff. And that was my first experience with rejection again. And so, I could not find work, but there were not a lot of reentry programs. In 2014, when I came home, there are not a lot of re entry programs. And so, um, finding my way through this maze of, you know, the, the community or society still judging you, uh, for a crime that you've already paid your time. Uh, and you pay your debt to society is still holding it against you. And so, um, all the way up until my, I met my pastors. Um, I was given. An opportunity to, um, do work with my past is at that time when I met him, they had a, an 80, 000 square foot facility and it, you know, God brought me into the life and, um, God used my pastor to be an example of. Modern day faith, the walk of faith, like I will tell you the walk of faith, like Moses and Abraham, that type of faith. And so that's what my pastor showed me. And I want to name them Pastor John and Eliana Zayas, uh, from grace and peace church. My pastors whom I love, you know, they are my, not just my, my pastors. They're my friends. I consider them my friends and, um, mentors. Um, beautiful people and he showed me, showed me about faith that I, of course, on the inside I couldn't see. So here comes the other spectrum of faith that I needed to, to build out. And so, uh, in 2016, all the way up to 20, uh, I was in, God had me in their, in their space and he was walking out, uh, and showing me what faith is out here in, in the community. And so, it was a wonderful time for me, a lot of suffering, a lot of suffering, but it was a wonderful time because, um, it was in that moment that I realized that God would never leave me. He would never forsake me and he would never fail me. I knew it on the inside because that was his promise to me. And literally his verbal promise to me was I'll never leave you, no forsake you, no fail you and true to his word. He's never left me, he's never forsaken me, nor has he ever failed me, and to him be all the glory, because I couldn't be in the position that I'm in without him. His, his stamp of approval, and you know, when you're in crime, you sometimes leave evidence, there's evidence, ample evidence to prove. That my father in heaven, this is all he's doing. Amen. And so I came home and I immediately I try to go to work in And I did I found that the work that I was doing was lined up with the faith that God would have me to build out Because what what I saw man could not do It was only God and that was when my passes and the 80, 000 square foot that was a living day to day Depending on my on our father for the next move that was on a daily and that was like for four straight years and in 2020 I had gotten hurt. I had an accident and just the three of my toes were crushed. Whoa. My forklift. And that would be the last time I would do any type of construction work in the facility. So I couldn't work. And so my pastor said, I need you to come and pray. So I would spend eight hour shifts at the church praying while the church was being lifted up. And there was a whole process of that. So, and that went on for a year and, then I got better and I ended up going to work for another school. And, um, that lady, uh, never forget it. Danita Travis, I'm by the hand club for kids, having an M on my back. She still hired me and, she gave me an opportunity. For, it was just probably, one of the greatest acts of mercy when you give somebody an opportunity like that with no, with no reservations. Right. I got you. And, I did that, uh, for two years and then God said, and two, 2000, I had a, kind of gave me a vision. Many visions, but he placed in my heart an organization. I didn't know it then. He just, he gave me the, the, what we would call the, the inner workings, the inner parts of this organization. And today, and 20, 2020, on my organization, Life Impactors Foundation, Life Impactors Foundation. Uh, was created. And, that was a process in and of itself, a lot of suffering and that, and two years of nothing happening. And, um, and then God just reveals himself. And he, when, when you're in and walk with God and you hear his voice and he tells you to do this, you do it, you do it quickly. Don't, don't, don't, don't waste no time. You do, cause it's never going to be outside of his word.

Omar: 1:33:09

So

Harry: 1:33:09

if you see that it's in his word, run with it because it's golden.

Omar: 1:33:12

Amen.

Harry: 1:33:13

And so, that's exactly what happened. Remember I talked to you about faith, putting feet to your faith. So we have created life impact is foundation. We just don't have a house for her. And so it's just on a Thursday night and 2022, I began to cry out. Father, we need a space for our organization. And a week later, a week and a half later, my wife is at work with, um, with the pastors, and so I get a call. Hey, pastor wants to meet with us tonight. And a week prior to that, I had broken down because I shared my heart with my father, but it was a moaning and a groaning from the inside and only the Holy Spirit knew that. And I just began to weep before the Lord. And, and it was, uh, that night that our pastor said, call us. And we got on a zoom call. He says, so you're serious about your organization. I said, absolutely pastor. Well, God had laid in my heart. He goes, okay. He said, um, I want you to take the Kildare property. Which is the old church and make it yours. So he entrusted us with a million dollar property in essence. No way. He said, take it and make it yours. And so, and that's exactly what he did. And so I had to make a decision. I had been waiting on my father to tell me when to quit the job to go for, for, you know, in, in, in my organization, we call it ministry in the ministry. And, um, my pastor says one Sunday, he says, I heard from the father that morning. He says, go. And I went to, I went to, uh, service on that Sunday morning and pastor after service pastor come up and he says, go. I knew it then it was confirmed. I went to the job the following Monday. I went to the job. I said, it's time for me to go. And I went, I left my job. It was 50 grand a year to making nothing a year, but taking a facility over and preparing it for life impactors. And, and that's exactly what I did.

Omar: 1:35:24

That's faith.

Harry: 1:35:25

Moving into faith. And, then I, you know, it was like, you know, when God has, he has his hand in your life, there are things that need to happen. not for, for myself, but for others, and it may be someone that's listening now and they're, they're, they're like that kid, you know, they're like, man, I, I, I don't know, but God is saying go. And so it just so happened that, last year, uh, in 22 and 22, right after we got our, our, our facility. That, that used to be, uh, the church and a community center. So we took it over and we started making it our own. So we have our own reentry program. We have, our entrepreneurship programs, and we have a, a food pantry now, uh, with the Chicago, uh, greater food depository. And so we're impacting our community. Amen. And it's just one day, another Thursday, I began to cry to the father. I said, father, we need a school. See, it's God that places it in you for you to ask, because we don't know what to ask for. And I asked him because it was what he placed in my heart. And so my father, he didn't answer me in that moment, but I was, it was like two weeks, three weeks later, I get a call from my older brother. And my older brother says, man, I need you to give me. Uh, hand. And I said, where you at? He goes, tomorrow I'm going to meet at the school. They're giving me this table. And I was like, giving you a table? He goes, yeah, the school is closing down. I said, okay. And so I'm thinking school closing. I just asked my father for school and then in my mind, I'm thinking, father, is this you? I didn't hear nothing. So the following day, I, my brother, he does not go there. He was, so my my brother's a, lieutenant in the fire department. And so he was doing an inspection at the school. So I go to the following day and knock on the door. Hi, my name is, I'm here to help my brother pick up this table. Oh, Isaac. Yeah. Come on in. So remember when the word go that morning, I said, father, do you want me to go over there? He said, go whenever God says you go. It's because I already been planning. God is already working on that. That's that's you can, you can write that and take it to the bank, put it on stone. When God said, go, it's already done. And so I get there and I'm talking to the executive director and, she showed me the table that my brother was taking out. It's beautiful table. And I'm looking around and I'm just like, you know, Debra, I said, What's going on here? Are you guys close? Why are you guys closing down? And she told me what had happened and how COVID really affected them financially and you know I shut the school down and I said, well what's gonna happen with the school? I said, well, we're gonna get you know We're gonna donate it and I said sir Can I tell you my story and by the ending of that conversation almost an hour and a half later She says I'm gonna help you get to school and a year after that in 23 We closed out in the school and working in the school right now, and it's in a beautiful space It's on Chicago Avenue and in long in the Austin community because I live in the Austin community So it's right where we want it at right where you know those that are in the name in and in in need the most are at and so we're gonna be providing a lot of services there and so that, that's, that's a part of my faith walk. I don't believe that's the ending of it because what he's shown me is much, much more bigger, but we all got to go through the process, right? And this process here with the school has been suffering. It's been a lot of suffering behind the school, just like there's been a lot of stuff. When you get, you know, acquainted with suffering and you make it a friend, it's not that it's bad. It's just that it's a toll that it takes on the individual, but it's to bring you before him. Yeah. to remind you that you need to come to the ending of yourself. And it's only when you come to the ending of yourself that he can actually work. So when you're suffering and you come to that place where you're broken before him, he says, okay. You come to the ending of yourself. Thank you. Now allow me to do my work. That's how he does that. So let me transition now into what, what we're doing now outside of, cause outside of our, our, you know, our school and our facility and the impact that we're making, that's a hat that I wear, but it's, and it's a hat that I love, you know, when my wife, she's actually the one that's running, you It's she's running. She's the face of the organization. Okay, because I have a different hat that I wear and then that hat came about in 22 I went before the courts to have my background sealed the M and And I'm gonna cut straight to to the judge's response. Yeah, mr. Pena for all intents and purposes You're successful. How do you expect for me in, in good conscience to grant you this sealing? I see if you had a need for a job, I will sign it right now. If you had a need for housing, I will sign it right now. But you have fallen through the cracks you see. You have your own organization, you have your own facility, you have your own construction company. You're successful. So how do you expect me to grant you this? And she says, I can't. And with that, she hit the gavel and I deny your petition. So there was a brother, my pastors, everybody was on it. It was everybody was devastated. Even my lawyer was devastated. And, my brother Marlon Chamberlain, and I named him because this is a great man. He's a great man of, of God. He walks in the faith and, um, he says, wait a minute, your honor, how do you justify denying him this petition? And she said, who are you? He said, my name is Marlon Chamberlain. And she says, I don't have to give you an account to what I do. And with that, she hit the gavel and it was over. She had denied me my petition. I remember my, and this was through zoom because it was still COVID. So close. I remember just closing. The laptop and I had not really experienced rejection, blatant rejection like that. And I was tore from the inside and I just remember I was crying. I was crying. I was crying. I was weeping. I was crying to my father. Father, this is an injustice. It's wrong. How could she justify this father? And I said, give me a fire within father. Give me a fire within father. And I will fight. Um, a couple of weeks after that, I was down in Springfield, my first time going down to Springfield and, in essence, I understood what justice was from the point of God's perspective, and he's the God of justice, and as the body of Christ, when one part of the body is hurting, all parts of the body is hurting, and we can see that in, that, that, that is true, because when you have 12 million individuals in the state of Illinois who reside in the state of Illinois. And over 4. 1 million have backgrounds. One third of that population have backgrounds. And many of those are Christians who are caught up in a caste system called permanent punishment. What do I mean by that? Anybody that has a background that goes to put in for a job gets denied because of that background or for housing, they get denied housing because of that background. Then you begin to see that that caste system Which is governed by 1, 300 laws in the state of Illinois that keep people in permanent punishment. Then you understand that you're still in prison. So you've gone from a physical prison to an invisible prison that governs your life. That's saying you will never be successful. This will always follow you the rest of your days and you and your children will ever suffer for it. What do you mean your children? There is a law right now in the books that says a convicted felon cannot be the chaperone To their children's or their loved ones event in school. Did you know that? No, I didn't so You come home after doing you know, five six seven years. Your child is eight nine years old Comes in dad dad dad. I want you to be my chaperone We're going to go to the shed aquarium and you signed that application. He takes it the following day. If you don't get a call that day, the following day, you're going to get a call. Mr. Omar, I'm sorry to inform you, but you can't be the chaperone to this son's event because a convicted felon can't. That's a law. That's how your son is impacted by it. That's where generations begin to get impacted by. Permanent punishment. I'll say this to you when you face that judge and the judge sentenced you He said oh my you're gonna do this come home. You're gonna do this amount of probation and then you'll be free to go That's not true. Because what he didn't tell you was that there is a I call it an APR. You still have to give, interest for that crime for the rest of your life. I see it's, it's unconstitutional because the constitution says that if you have been convicted of a crime, you should be restored to youthful citizenship, but that's not true, you see, because as long as you are paying interest and your Children are paying interest. On those charges, you can never be free from the system that holds you in bondage. As a matter of fact, when I look back at the scriptures, I see Moses and God called him and he sent them back. And he said, tell Pharaoh, let my people go. So the Illinois coalition to end permanent punishment has set themselves. Ourselves. We're all directly impacted men and women. Our board is directly impacted men and women who are, we are in a movement to say to Pharaoh Let our people go. Because as long as we have that caste system, our people are in bondage. And whenever you can't be a father to your child, that deprives you of exercise, exercising the authority and the right that God gave you to be a father of your child. And not only that, when it goes against what God has said about you, if you work, you eat. You said, I work, man, he can't put, he don't, you know, when you put your hands to the plow, don't look back. When you have to work, when man deprives you of exercising your right, your spiritual right to work, as the Father has commanded us, then who's wrong, who's right? I'll tell you, my Father is justice. He's just, and that is wrong. So I want, the focus here is justice. And this is to everybody that's listening that's ever been impacted by the system. If you are directly impacted and you have experienced what it is to be incarcerated, or you have a background, you are not a first class citizen. You are, you have been placed in a second class citizenship. Governed by a caste system called permanent punishment that keeps you in perpetual punishment. And these 1300 laws affect you and most important, they affect you and your relationship with God. Because if God said you work and they said, no, you're not going to work. Who's wrong? God is right. This is our heritage. So what am I saying? As the people of Israel came out, Moses made them a promise that God would be with them. And he brought them out. What we're saying today is that we are working to deliver, set free a people that is in 4. 1 or over 4. 1 million individuals in the state of Illinois that are in bondage to the system. And God is saying, get them out. So that means that the people have, the people have to rise up. I say enough of this. And that says, let's break it down. You're going to have to fight for your rights. And so what we're doing as the Illinois coalition to end permanent punishment, we are working to remove laws and languages in the laws that are just an equitable, because up to this point, if you can't get a job because of your background, then that's not, that's not a problem. Your problem. Cause you want to go work. You want to be obedient to your father. You want to put bread on the table. You don't want to do it by slinging drugs and killing people, sticking people up. You want to do it the right way, especially those that named the name of Jesus Christ. If you have a right, a God given, right? Your father said work, then we should be able to go to work. Man cannot dictate to us what that spiritual right. And that's manifested here on this earth. So Illinois coalition to end permanent punishment. I'm the Chicago based organizer. And so what is it that we need to do? I'm here to tell you it's time to get up. I'll say it this way. We're 4 million strong, 4 million strong, not Boston strong, not Florida strong, not New Orleans strong. We're 4 million strong. And until we come up and we say enough is enough and we tell Pharoah, let our people go. We'll stay in a caste system, locked up, invisible prison, and our children are going to suffer for it. I'm a grandfather. I had grandbaby boys. That I cannot be a grandfather to, and those spaces because of this conviction. So I don't want to go to my grave. With this X on my back and I implore, I encourage my people, those that have tastes, what it is to have a background, don't settle for the X. You don't have to, let's fight for our right to be set free, to be restored our youthful citizenship. We can demand that we can demand that. And we do, and we are demanding that. So what's the ask here. Join us, come fight with us. We advocate we have we are a policy and advocacy and organizing organization We work on policies So our people have to know that there's hope because God has never left his people hopeless And there are times when God will raise up a remnant and say enough is enough for this system And we believe that's exactly what's getting ready to happen and what's happening now in our community, especially when it comes to these laws. We go down with Springfield and we, we, um, legislate for good and equitable laws. And one of those laws, if I can share, it's a, it's a bill that we have the clean slate initiative. What is the Clean Slate Initiative? It's an initiative to automate the process for expungement and sealing. What does that mean? That means that once we pass this bill, what happened in 13 other states will happen here. In Michigan, 2023, on the first day after they passed the Clean Slate Initiative, 1 million individuals had their backgrounds expunged and sealed. 1 million in the first day. We have 4 million, 4. 1 million or more individuals in the state of Illinois have the potential of having their backgrounds expunged and sealed on the first day. Tell me if that's not liberty, liberty, freedom from an oppressive system. So I say to you, how do we get there? There's ways we can do that Allow allow us to come do teachings with you If you have organizations allow us to come and talk to you about what we're doing Get the information to you and you make the decision and you ask your heavenly father Is this something you would have me to get into our god is a god of justice? He is just And man's injustices cannot override god's justice. He's the god of justice Now, what does that mean? Does that mean that we are for those individuals who are out there committing crime and that no, no, wait a minute. Let's clear that up real quick. If you're out there committing crime, as we say, you're gonna have to do the time. What we're saying is that once you're in the system, And you come out of the system and you done your parole or probation time. That's what it should end. You should not, your background should not follow you all the days of your life. The only thing that should follow you all the days of your life is the salvation that Christ Jesus has given you. Not man, not what man institutes to keep us in bondage. And the only way by the grace of God that we remove this, Is if we come together and that is that you allow us to come into your spaces. If you're directly impacted, you can get ahold of us at Illinois coalition to end permanent punishment or ENDPP.Org and allow us come and look at what we're doing, get involved. And there's many ways of getting involved. And, um, and my hope is that Omar will be able to relate this information, you know, and get this information out so that We can begin to start building four million strong, and I want to note that I want to say four million strong because we are four million strong and once we do that, and we begin to build a voters block, a block that will truly tell our legislators enough is enough, either you move this out or we'll move you out. That's the power that we're talking about. Because once we have that, we can start liberating our people. You can finally start getting good jobs. And if you already have a job, Your background should keep you from elevating. Scaling up to a higher higher pay so we have to make a decision What do we want to do? Do we want to stay in that position of bondage god's people? They're not in bondage. The only Individual that we are in bondage to is jesus christ himself That's it. Other than that when we're in bondage to man. God's saying i'm not with that come out of that And so I want to encourage every man woman and youth get a hold of us. We'll bring you the information You We'll have cookouts and we'll bring you the information. We'll have teach ins. We'll, we're working on doing expungement. This is another thing I want to share. We're going to be having six expungement series and legislative, I mean expungement and sealings throughout this summer. Austin community, Little Village, Pilsen, Englewood, Back of the Yards. Um, there's a, there's another one that, where we're going to be at. So get ahold of us so that we can begin to talk to you about what that expungement looks like. But if you want automated expungements where you don't have to come out a dollar out of your pocket, come work with us. Because we're supporting this bill by the Clean Slate Initiative that automates this process. So this way, once you have done your time and your parole time, automatically, The system cleanses your record. I think that's power. And I think that we owe that to ourselves to fight for that. And I'm encouraging to do so.

Omar: 1:57:13

Right. You know what, thank you so much for sharing that. Cause you're right. I never thought about the example you gave with the dad trying to be, their first kid on a field trip and not able to win 4 million, 4. 1 million that you're right. Like me, I got convicted in 97. I did three years, 2000. Yeah. And I've been, I haven't gone back, you know, since, but you're right. It does affect you. Cause I remember even, I thank God for the employer, that gave me a chance, but even when I went to go get a better job, I wasn't going to get the job because of my record. And the only thing that I know, even going back to you saying God's hand was upon you. The only thing that helped me. Was that my brother worked there. So they went to my brother and they say, Hey, you know, he has this record, you know, and my brother at that time, I was already saved. This was in 2007. So I was saved for three years. So my brother, he started talking about me and he goes to church three times a week, you know, so they gave me an opportunity, but that does keep you. And man, to, to anybody that just heard him say all these things, you know, We are in a sense in bondage. I, I, I didn't, I didn't think I was to you explained it and it hit me in the way that it still affects me and the way that it affects us to all those that are listening to have that. So we definitely, I'm going to put, you know, once I get this podcast out there, I'll put a link, I'll put the website and whatever other information you got, because we definitely got to get behind this because we are affected, man. And like you said, I love what you said, man. Let my people go. Let my people

Harry: 1:58:56

go. Yes. Here, let me, let me share this. So I'll do, I'll do our work in injustice. If I don't tell you about what I experienced, uh, in the two years that I have been doing this, when I first came in, we had the free act, the free act is, uh, stems of legislation that would change, um, the probate act probate act of 1975 states that a convicted felon cannot be the executor of the loved one's estate. Okay. Let me say that again. The law, the probate act of 1975 says that a convicted felon cannot be the executor of a loved one's estate. It is right, our right as Children to inherit what our families give us our moms and dads. That's that comes from our father that that's ours for man to create a law that deprives an individual in case of point Marlon Chamberlain. Um, he is the executor of Illinois coalition to end permanent punishment. My brother and he said, Came home after doing 10 years. His father left him to be the executor over his estate and He passed away He ends up going to probate court and you know And even when there's a willing that you have to go to probate court and the judge says, okay Yeah, this is what's gonna happen. Looked at Marlon said Marlon. Mr. Chamberlain I'm sorry to inform you but you can't be the executor of your loved ones estate. He goes why not? He said because There is a law from 1975 that says a convicted felon cannot be the executor of an estate. And so they had to do some, you know, quick movement. They got, uh, I believe it was a brother that did it or a sister that did it. And he was able to, they were able to perform their father's last rites. Now think about that. Mankind has, has now said that a child cannot serve his parents last rights because of a background, his background had nothing to do with anything with, uh, executive being an executor of, uh, a will none. So what we're saying last year, uh, we fought for almost a year and a half. The free act, the free act would change the language, uh, from saying that a convicted felon cannot. And the language would read if the testator, which is the lone one departing says in the will, I understand that my child or my loved one has been incarcerated and or has it has a financial crime yet still in all I desire for him or her to be the executor of my will. August 1st, our governor signed our law into effect, the free act, January 1st, it went into, it went into effect, 600, 000 individuals were immediately impacted by that bill. And now they are able to be the executor of their loved ones estate. So when they say, well, how can you do it? We can do it. You see, God has brought and jailed in people to come together who are directly impacted and has ordained it and stamped it and saying, okay, now wake up my people because we can do this. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. It's his empowerment. When God has put his hands on it, can't nobody deprive us from that. And the last time I checked, God loves his children. And if you name the name of Jesus Christ. And you have a background and you're in bondage to the system. God is saying, come on out. You don't have to be locked up. You've done your time. I use that time to birth the relationship between us. Now I want you walking in faith. Come on out, look us up, get with us so that we can now become empowered to do what we, well, at least I, I didn't know that I could do it until I step into the, in the tundra there in, in, in, uh, in the Capitol and said, Oh my God, I feel like I'm home. Because I understood that power is no longer in the guns. But in the pen and the paper, and once we learn how to utilize that, we can't be deprived of anything. So formula is strong. Wake up. Yes. It's time. We have to wake up so that we can get these things removed from our background.

Omar: 2:03:49

Man, I'm definitely there, man. After, after we're done here, I'm gonna get some information. I'll definitely keep sharing the mission, that, that you have. God's justice that's the other reason why it's going forward because God's hands upon it This is what he wishes like you said for his children, right? But um in any final words brother, maybe something we didn't get a chance to touch on that you want to share before we get ready to close out. And then after that, if you could close this out in a prayer, you know?

Harry: 2:04:16

Absolutely. Um, there may be someone out there struggling right now, and, you're a believer and you believe that God has left you. You don't feel his presence. Let me say this in that space that you're in, you're more close to your father and you can never dream of you could ever want it's it's the, it's the one time when our father is holding us and he's saying to us, I got you. I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you. No one ever fail you stay the course and that's the word today stay the course because what he's done for us He'll do for you stay the course get in your word stay in your word stay in prayer because there's a lot of things are happening in our world right now and I would venture to tell you, get the news of the word of God, the gospel news, and that will fortify your faith and strengthen you and your time. But know this, that he loves you, he'll never leave you, no forsake you, no fail you. And he's never left any of his children. So I say to you, be strong and, reach back out to us. And I'm believing that there's going to be such a movement that lives are going to be impacted. People are going to be set free because when he was crucified on that cross. And he shed his blood, it was for our freedom as you're right. And so I want to encourage you, no matter what you're going through right now, as we move into this time of prayer, I just want to encourage you, stay the course, don't go to the left or to the right, wait on him, because he's right there with you, and he loves you. He's our Father. Father, we just come before you, Father, in the precious name of Jesus. Father, I, I thank you that your mercies abound. It is written in your word that where sin abounded, your grace did much more abound. And your mercies, and maybe some of us right now, all of us for that matter, are in need of your mercy on Father's hand. Forgiveness of things that we have done that we shouldn't have done. And at this moment we ask for mercy. Father, we ask for grace because without your grace, we can't overcome what it is that you're calling us to overcome. And so we ask for grace and peace, Father, that peace that surpasses all understanding. That as we draw closer to you, you said to us that you would draw closer to us. And so, Father, I ask that you guard each and every one of us. Those that are listening in family and loved ones, their children, and those that are directly impacted. I asked father that you will light a fire in their heart, that they will come and walk in faith. And it will put feet to their faith to join a movement of bringing you ultimate glory and seeing your people set free. I father asked that you bless my brother, Omar, that you would perfect this ministry so that you can be glorified and your people can be blessed. I set the words that were shared today. That those that are listening would have reached their heart and they would be moved to getting involved or getting connected. More important, connecting to you, coming back to you. And Father, I ask that those that will come behind, behind me, that you will be glorified through their testimony. Because truly we overcome the enemy through the word of our testimony and the blood of Jesus Christ. Now, Father. I just lay a charge unto your people, the words that you gave Moses, tell Pharaoh to let our people go. Tell Pharaoh to let my people go in Jesus name.

Omar: 2:09:04

Amen. Amen. Amen. Brother man. Thank you for being here, for sharing your story. And man, the work that you're doing, definitely, uh, God's hands upon this and, uh, man, he continued to bless the work of your hands. And before we sign off, can you share that the name of the organization and the site, like a website or if you're on social media, you know, whatever, whatever you have out there.

Harry: 2:09:28

So, so it's the Illinois coalition to end permanent punishment. Uh, we're a founder on LinkedIn. Uh, we are found on Facebook, I believe. This other one, Instagram. So, yeah, and we're located there. You can go to E N D P P, which is the Illinois coalition, to end permanent punishment. Hit the three bars, go down to the link tree. You'll see everything that we're doing, everything that we've done. And if you want, if you want to look at a document, we have a 58 minute documentary. And that link tree look at look at the work that we're doing and get inspired and allow hope to rise up Knowing that there's an end to this punishment and that if we put our feet to our faith We can take this and end this bondage. And so, yeah, that's the Illinois coalition to end permanent punishment. I want to shout out to my brother, Marlon Chamberlain, my brother, Paul Rothschild, my brother, Greg Chambers, my sister, Keanya Ange, and my sister Shamir Love. Six individuals that are doing this work and we're looking for more. Come get involved.

Omar: 2:10:49

Amen. And Jesus name. I made it in the name of

Harry: 2:10:52

Jesus

Omar: 2:10:53

praise. Amen. Thanks brother. Thanks bro. Thanks man. We're already two 21 over here, man. Hey, but, uh, there's definitely was a blessing, man. And with that, we're going to get ready to wrap up. Uh, Matthew four 16 reads the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned alongside my brother, Harry Pena. I'm Omar Calvillo. And we are wrong too strong.