"This Will Be Your Last Time!" w/ Bert Berrios

"This will be your last time!" is the statement Bert hears spoken in his mind on the day he ends up committing a crime that will eventually land him behind bars with a 40 year sentence.  Bert grew up in the Humboldt Park neighborhood on the North side of Chicago. He grew up in a loving home, with mom and dad in the picture. One day he sees his older brother come home after getting into a physical altercation with a stab wound to his head. After this incident Bert feels compelled to get involved into the lifestyle his older brother is in. He joins the same gang and the life of violence begins. At a young age death and destruction become the norm. In the 1990's the streets of Chicago were very violent. In response to some of his friends being murdered he goes and he retaliates. A young man ends up losing his life. There at the hospital investigating the crime is a police officer by the name of Marco David. He is the one that begins the investigation that will eventually lead Bert behind bars. Approximately 10 years into his prison sentence, Bert's dad asks him to add Marco David to his visitor list. He resists at first, because he recognizes that name from his police report, as one of the officers that helped place him behind bars. Bert eventually allows Marco to come visit him. One reason being is that Marco is also a Pastor at a church Bert's parents attend. On the first visit Marco feels compelled to share a word with Bert, something he feels that the LORD is leading him to share with him. He tells him, he doesn't know what this means, but he wants  Bert to know that God is saying to him, "This will be your last time!"
Tune in to hear how the life of a criminal, a cop and a pastor intersect and lead to a story of redemption like no other.



Redeemed: The Rebirth of a Latin King (book)

(Testimonial video) https://vimeo.com/23845
141

https://midwest.church/
https://www.khnm.net
https://koinoniahouse.org/programs/radical-time-out

Transcript

Omar: 0:15

Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Wrong to Strong Chicago. I'm your host. My name is Omar Calvillo and tonight I have my guest here. His name is Bert Berrios. Uh, I met this brother had to be, I think maybe two, three weeks ago. Uh, I met him at, uh, we're, we're part of a ministry called Koinonia House, National Ministries. And what they do, they do a prison ministry. So they're, uh, all throughout the state of Illinois. Uh, Cook County, and I believe they're even throughout the country, they'd be going to like, uh, prisons in Angola, Louisiana, and there's a few more, I think Mississippi, uh, so I'm going to shout out Pastor Manny Mill, uh, Sarah Gonzalez, and everybody that, that's out there, you know, that's part of that ministry. Uh, I know it's blessed me, uh, I've met, uh, man, a bunch of great people and it's got me involved in, in, in prison ministry as well. So I'm going to give a shout out to them definitely. And I would like to welcome my, my brother Bert here. Thank you for having me, brother. Thanks for sure, brother. Uh, so yeah, we met there, you know, and, uh, it was a prayer breakfast, you know, we've got there and, uh, it was awesome to see, we had like a, a nice group of people that decided that they wanted to do a prison ministry, right. It was like. Yeah. And could you share with us how long have you been involved with, uh,

Bert: 1:28

uh, Koinonia house? Yeah. Yes. Amen. Um, so I've been involved with koinonia house for some time now. Um, that, that experience started when I was in prison myself. So I met Manny Mill, the, the director of Koinonia House while I was in prison. Okay. And Manny Mill. That's a long story. We'll get to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. We don't wanna,

Omar: 1:45

you know, we don't wanna Yeah, yeah, yeah. You start

Bert: 1:46

too fast. Right. But, uh, I met him there. Okay. And then obviously, you know, it, it's, it transpired throughout my time in prison and then being out and, um, I'm part of a church called Midwest Bible Church and we have a ministry called Hope and Prison Ministry and Hope and Prison. Prison Ministry is basically a per ministry. Uh, supporting in a part of koinonia house and their endeavors of, you know, what they're doing in prison. Oh, okay. No, that's good.

Omar: 2:10

Well, where's that church at? Uh, where,

Bert: 2:12

where are you guys located? It's in Chicago on the Northwest side. 3441 North Cicero. Chicago, Illinois. I'm right off the corner of Addison and Cicero. Okay. All right. Um, it's a, it's a church that also supported me when I was in prison. Um, that's another long story. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

Omar: 2:29

yeah. Hey, definitely. Hey, you know what? I know this, um, At the end, I want to share it too. There, there's a, uh, another testimony video that you shared. I'll definitely put the link out there so that people can hear it. But man,

Bert: 2:40

so that video was from Koinonia house or was it? Yeah, it was for one of the banquets some years ago for Koinonia house. And that video was basically, uh, a tribute to Koinonia house. And, um, you know, just, uh, a remembrance of how important the ministry is, what they do and. How crucial it is for guys who are coming out of prison, you know, their families and even brothers who are in prison.

Omar: 2:59

Amen. Amen. Yeah, definitely, man. We got a lot to get into, but man, we'll start at the beginning. Uh, if you could share, you know, like there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that are not from Chicago. Uh, so can you tell us what part of Chicago did you grow up in? Uh, what was that neighborhood called? And maybe if you could paint a picture for us or how life was, let's say when you were young, you know,

Bert: 3:18

how did life look for you? Amen. Um, so I grew up in an area, Humboldt park area in Chicago. It was, uh, when I was growing up, there was in the 80s, early 90s, um, even to the mid 90s. Um, so, you know, for a lot of people who don't know Chicago, we and you and I know it's a very segregated city. And, uh, you know, it's, it's in segregation in the way that usually a neighborhood will be mostly predominantly one race, you know? So the area I grew up in was, you know, predominantly Puerto Rican, almost 100 percent Puerto Rican. Um, the whole Northwest side, but definitely all of the areas around Humboldt Park, touching Humboldt Park were Puerto Rican. Um. Uh, I grew up on a street called Levitt and uh, you know, now it's, you know, it's funny you go there now and it's one of the most trendy areas in Chicago. There's yuppies everywhere there. Rents are, you know, are ridiculous. Houses are ridiculous over there. When I was there, the actual block I lived on was never a terrible block. It was never, you know, gang infested. But any, any, anywhere you go to the, you know, to, to the South or to the North, they got bad on division street, Augusta. It was bad. I lived on a little street called Thomas. Okay. So there was a hospital right near where I live. St. Mary hospital. And, uh, just that little few blocks was always kind of protected maybe because of the hospital wasn't like terrible. Obviously guys lived in the areas, but it wasn't like, you know, guys were there all the time, hanging out, gang banging on that street. Right. But on Leavitt division, Augusta, Western, Damen. That was a different story. Okay. All

Omar: 4:46

right. You know, can you tell us how, how were things at home when you were young? Was mom, dad in the picture, brothers,

Bert: 4:51

sisters? Yeah. So in my story, I don't have the, you know, my story is a little different than a lot of other brothers. My mom and dad were married. They were together. I grew up with my mom and dad, both. Um, um, you know, we had a, a pretty stable home. Um, my father had a past previously. He was in prison a few times, but this is before he was with my mother. Um, before they, you know, before they even met. When he got out of prison, the last time he was in prison, he was, uh, completely changed individual. He actually was funded by the state of Illinois for a place called Casa Nuestra. Casa Nuestra was basically a work release center and a reenter, uh, you know, helping guys reenter, uh, re acclimate to society, job training, all that good stuff. A lot of these guys were ex heroin addicts, ex gang members, or even still. So it was a very, uh, a vital program. And I remember as a kid, we used to go on these picnics, Casa Huetra picnics. And yeah, it was, uh, it was something, man. And this was, I don't know, seventies, late seventies, early eighties. You know, when, you know, when my father was doing that and then at some point, um, he ended up, you know, obviously that doesn't pay a lot, you know, whatever you get, the grant money you get is what you get. And, um, he ended up opening up a real estate company. Okay. And the real estate company was, you know, predominantly in Humboldt Park. It was on division and, uh, artesian. And, um, yeah, he owned quite a few buildings there and, and that was how it was, you know, and he did, you know, he did pretty well for himself for some years and, um, then some, some bad things happened, he ended up, I don't remember if you remember the recession in 95. No, not really. Housing collapse and everything. He lost everything then. And that was the year. We'll get to that too. That I went to prison. Oh man. Okay. I went to jail 95. But, um, anyhow, um, yeah, so I had a stable family life with me. It was much more of the influence outside of the family. Gotcha. That was the biggest problem. Right. Right. Now,

Omar: 6:45

now when, now in the household, were you like the oldest? Where were you at?

Bert: 6:48

Where, where did you fall in? There was, uh, it was four altogether. There's four of us. Um, the ones that lived at the house though was. My big brother Cecilio, my, me, the middle, and then my little sister Desiree. And we have an older sister Amy as well. Okay. So, She didn't live in the house with us though, but she was, uh, you know, that's, that's the family dynamic

Omar: 7:07

there. Gotcha. Okay. But so things were pretty stable, love,

Bert: 7:10

love in the family, you know, you know, my mom and dad, they worked, um, you know, they were always trying to provide, you know, obviously they knew what the neighborhood looked like and, you know, they were always trying to provide to kind of, you know, schooling and all that type stuff, you know, good schooling, stuff like that. Just so obviously you have a better education alternatives, you know, and. Obviously, sometimes, uh, the environment, um, has a bigger effect on you than the other things. Okay. Got you, man. And an important thing that I just want to mention, I think my biggest problem, I think a lot of people's problems, you know, especially young men, it's an identity crisis and that's something that I probably struggle with the most when you don't know, when you don't know your true identity, you're searching, you're, you're, you're opening a lot of doors. You're, you know, trying different things. And, uh, obviously that can lead us to a lot of bad spaces, you know, and it was true for me. That's exactly, you know, one of my biggest things in retrospect was me. Not, you know, me not know my identity. Gotcha.

Omar: 8:08

So, so like, like when I know now we're talking about looking back, obviously, like, since when do you feel you started like to look at like around

Bert: 8:15

what age, I guess, like, Oh, that was, you're talking about.

Omar: 8:18

Like, when do you feel you first started, man, I got to find who I am. I got to find where I

Bert: 8:22

fit in. Okay. So when I was young, I was into sports. I was big time into sports. So, you know, we played everything growing up. We had a couple of fields right by the house. We used to jump the St. Mary's, the St. Mary's, uh, fence every day and play baseball. Was it like a Catholic school or

Omar: 8:35

something? No, it was a hospital. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Bert: 8:38

And I had a big old, a big old, uh, you know, in the back over there in Leavitt and Thomas between Haddon right there and a big old, I mean, it was huge, like a field for us. So we used to run in there and do everything, you know, baseball, football, everything. Uh, we had a couple of basketball courts in the neighborhood and then we had another, uh, field, right. Right in Clemeni field. I don't know if you know,

Omar: 8:55

Clemeni. Oh, you know what I'm at? That's why the William guys, I haven't had so many guys with the, from the North side. So yeah, yeah. Explain it, man.

Bert: 9:02

So Clemeni had a real good baseball team. Gotcha. They were the Wildcats. They had a real good baseball team. Everybody knew they, you know, uh, you know, some years they were real good. Other years, not so great, but they were not known for their baseball. So we used to play in that field. It was right behind another school called Diego, uh, Jose de Diego. And, you know, we had a couple of other fields and you know, that, that field was a little more dangerous because that was like the borderline right there. Okay. So in Chicago, kind of like what we talked about, there was parameters. And that was how it was in my neighborhood. I could only go so far, but I couldn't cross Western. Couldn't go west to Western. I couldn't go south of Augusta. And I couldn't, you know, you know, those, those were kind of the parameters where you were out, you know, allowed to travel because if you went outside of those, you were going into different neighborhoods. We're not familiar with those things. The guys would stop you. Hey, where are you from? What neighborhood you from? Even as a kid, I remember that. Yeah. It's even, even,

Omar: 9:50

and you're, you're talking about even without being gang affiliated, just based on where you're, you're living, I guess. Right. That's

Bert: 9:55

right. Okay. Based on where you're living, you get stopped. Hey, you know where you live at. And if you tell them what you is, what you be about. You know, something like that.

Omar: 10:04

And, and they, they really don't care at times, man. Like you could say, man, I ain't gang affiliated, man. You know, I ain't about that. And though, man, just based on where you live, they want to start trouble

Bert: 10:13

with you, right? I don't know if you remember this, but as you got older, they would start lifting up your shirts to see if you had tattoos, check out the

Omar: 10:21

sleeves, the legs.

Bert: 10:23

So, I mean, it was ridiculous, but, um, that's just how it was going. You know, even as a kid, I remember that they're like, these were not neighborhoods I was permitted to go into gotcha. Okay.

Omar: 10:31

I lived over here. Okay. So, you know, let's, let's go there. Like, okay, you're young, you know, you, you, you're seeing this obviously the gang life. Sure. Um, how does that transition look for you? Like from not being involved in it to like, I guess, gradually getting pulled into it or I don't know, yeah.

Bert: 10:45

So what I remember the biggest thing is my big brother, my big brother, um, he, uh, he came home one day and I remember he got into, you know, I, he started seeing him hang around with some guys. I didn't know part of a neighborhood over there, you know, where we were from and, um, came home one day, he got into some, some, uh, scuffle and, uh, you know, he got hurt. And when I seen him that he had got hurt, he got hit in the forehead with a, with a screwdriver. He stabbed him in the forehead with a screwdriver. So when I had seen that, I almost felt compelled my brother. I have to be involved in, you know, what he's into to make sure that, you know, we're together and, you know, the, you know, if anything goes down, I'm there with him. What was the age difference from

Omar: 11:22

you and him?

Bert: 11:23

Two years. Okay. Yeah. So, um, you know, when that happened, uh, I felt very compelled to be there and be a part of what he was a part of. And, um, that's kind of how it started for me. And then it got into a situation. I remember one day where he was around these guys and I went over there one day when he was not around and they wanted to violate me in. And unfortunately I let that happen when that happened, it was, it was very hard back then to turn back from

Omar: 11:49

what you did. How old were you when you got a violent 12 and four years old. And you want to share about the violation for people that don't know what, what does that

Bert: 11:57

look like back in this day? It was, you know, as you know, since it sounds real silly now as adults, as you know, mature individuals, we think about this, but back in those days you had to get two minutes, you know, uh, violation. And you had to get a little tattoo and you had to go take care of business. That was what, uh, you know, what it was back then. So, you know, that was, that was what it consisted of. You had to go do something, you had to get your, you know, beat up and you know, you had to get some type of tattoo, you know. And it was that

Omar: 12:23

all in one day or was it,

Bert: 12:24

it was usually not in one day, like a process, a little process, you know, things that were required. All right.

Omar: 12:31

Gotcha. Okay, man. So you get violated in, how does life change for you? You know, from,

Bert: 12:35

I was a kid, man, I was a baby and you know, I had no idea how, um, how real gangs were, how, you know, violent they could be. I thought of it as like good guys, bad guys. I didn't know no better. I was so naive that, you know, when I was growing up, I thought Kings and Latin Kings. We're two different gangs because one was Latin and one was just Kings. You know, I didn't know any better, you know, cause you see all the writing everywhere, Kings and Latin Kings. Oh, it was two different guys. You know? So I, you know, I didn't know, you know, any better. I was in the sports. I was, you know, like that, you know, so this stuff really was very foreign to me. So when I joined, it was like a different world for me, very different world for me. And me getting acclimated to that world was, was very hard because I was used to living a certain way and, um, not that way, you know, and, Kind of getting, calloused and seeing what was on the streets, you know, it was very, yeah, it was, it was very hard. And I remember my mom and dad, when they found out me and my brother were in gangs, they wanted us out. You got to get out. We told him, man, it's not, you know, it's not that simple. You know, it's not just, you know, cause we had to take five minutes head to toe to get out. Nobody wants that. We live right in the middle of the neighborhood. So there's no going, you know, no hiding anywhere, you know. So, yeah, that was just, it was kind of almost no way out. It seemed like, you know, at a young age, so maybe running, you know, going to a different state, which I didn't want to do, but, um, that would about, that would have been it. So I felt I had it under control. And then what happens is when you're in the streets and when you're in that lifestyle, seasons get worse, um, bigger things start happening. You start getting involved in bigger situations and then that turns you into desensitized catalyst and then eventually leads you somewhere. Prison, death, you know, God only knows, you know, for me, it led me to prison, but, um. You know, for a lot of people, that's how it starts, starts with small things, little fights and the fights get bigger and gunplay comes out and shootings. And, you know, the story, you know, gotcha. So that's how it happened for me. And, the funny thing was, I was indifferent towards like, the big, the two main gangs, the two main, um, partitions of gangs are people of folks. So you, the people, your folks, right. And there's a bunch of gangs within that, you know, within those two alliances, right. Right. So, I was in the area. It was all people. You know what I mean? There was Latin kings in my neighborhood, Spanish lords, insane unknowns, uh, even Puerto Rican stones back then. There was some black pea stones, stuff like that. But as soon as you cross Western, there's a 10 different gangs, Maniac Latin' Disciples, Spanish Cobras, Imperial Gangsters, Maniac Campbell Boys, Insane Campbell Boys, Latin Lovers, Insane Dragons, so you got all kind of stuff, you know, it's like, and I know the people that are not from Chicago, like, what? But that's, this is how this was, you know, so. It was like, you don't only have problems from one, you have problems from, you know, a whole plethora of different gangs. You know, you got to watch this. You can't go this block cause this, this, this two blocks over is this maniacs. You got white little D's over here. You got this. And that's just how it was. Yeah.

Omar: 15:29

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Them borderlines are real, right? Yeah. You know what? I had a brother on here that, uh, was, you know, like from, from a gang and then he started doing community outreach, you know, like, you know, trying to help guys get out of gangs. And he had to go to the, to the other side that he would always stay away from, which is the opposite side. And he said he was in the car and the guy parked and he, he got out. He said he's sitting in the car. He's like, Oh, the guy's like, come on. Oh, I got to get out the car. Oh, wow. Cause he said that these, uh. These borders were real, man, like, like, man, like, you know, like if I go over there, I'm looking for trouble, man, like, I could

Bert: 16:06

potentially get killed, you know what I

Omar: 16:08

mean? So then it is, man, those streets, those man, I ain't gonna go there, man, those are real. And then, and even Like when you're older, they're still like at the back of your mind, but, but yeah, okay. I take us through the transition, man. You, you, you're in there, you start seeing this violence and take us through, I guess gradually, like what, what led you to

Bert: 16:26

getting behind bars? Like, I guess, well, first let me, you know, like I said about the ups and downs on the street, a few guys I knew got killed. Um, and then I got beat up a couple of times, got my ribs broken, got jumped real severely one time and I got shot and then now it becomes real real because now, you know, you can't go anywhere without a weapon. So the first weapon I started carrying was a little 22 one shot thing. You got to pop open, put a bullet in, go like this and you get one shot. How old are you when you first started doing this? 13, 14, somewhere around there. Um, so I was young. Then as you get older, progresses to bigger weapons, um, more severe things, you know? So, I started that way. And then, um, people are shooting at you, you know, you're always knowing you have to be prepared and ready for what's coming. And then you start getting known that when you start getting known, you really can't go anywhere because you know, you're, you're already a marked individual. So that's how it happened for me. I started getting known and. My family on the other side that had the business on artesian, I couldn't go over there no more like at all because they knew me and they were waiting for me, you know, My mom and dad owned a business on artesian. Okay.

Omar: 17:32

And then that's like, uh, the other side or the heart of the

Bert: 17:34

Spanish Cobras. Okay. Which is three blocks away from my house. That's like the heart back then was the heart of this. Gotcha. And every day Clemeni let out, which was the whole school was an opposing gang. Is that the school you went to? No, I

Omar: 17:47

couldn't. Oh, okay. Right, right. I was from

Bert: 17:48

the other side. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. I couldn't go there, but, uh, no, I went to quite a few different schools. I went to, you know, here, there, um, I ended up dropping out like a. Like, you know, a fool and, you know, got my, I actually got, uh, my GED in prison. Okay. So, um, but that was all, like I said, that was basically self induced, you know, I always had an opportunity. My family always provided me with opportunity. I was just a consistent bad decision maker. I was lost and then I almost felt caught up. You know? Yeah. So that's why I say my story. It's a lot different. A lot of the individuals we deal with and a lot of even my friends, there was always that component of, you know, the father not being a part of the family. Uh, you know, a lot of other contributing factors. That wasn't the case for me. It was just a case of, um, you're, you're around this, you know, This, uh, this constant bombardment of, influences and this and that, and you want to be a part of it. That was a tough kid. I boxed for a lot of years growing up. So when you're a tough kid and you're kind of involved in that stuff. That's, you know, that's, that's how it turned for me. At least I can't tell everybody's story, but that's just how it was.

Omar: 18:48

Yeah. Yeah. And I know you mentioned about like your brother being in there and when that happened to him, almost drew you in like with me too, I have mom and dad in the picture, you know, hardworking parents and you know, my brother got involved and I felt like, man, I, I gotta be with them, you know, like, you know what I'm saying? That the family too, like

Bert: 19:03

it's, so that's the other thing with our family, you know, me and my brother's responsibility was kind of to protect my little sister. And we protected each other too. So that was something my father taught us. You know, you were, you were family, we stick together, all that stuff. So it was like, if my brother had beef, you got beef with me. That was always how it was. So, so it was no good. And I was, and even though my brother was older than me, I was, um, you know, I was probably as more aggressive than him, you know, so I was, you know, I, like I told you, I boxed and I was pretty strong at that point. So, um, A lot of fights and stuff like that. So you get known all this guy could fight a little bit, whatever. So, um, that's how it was. My brother didn't have that same reputation. So I think for me, it got a little worse faster than it did for him. Gotcha. Yeah.

Omar: 19:44

Cause that was already like in you. Yeah. All right. So, so what was that transition? I know you mentioned the guns and all that. What?

Bert: 19:51

So, um, yeah, like I said, uh, so there was some real violent years, you know, I know you remember these years. Um, I would say like though, at least in my memory, what I remember a lot is 92 to 95. A lot of murders happened in Chicago. A lot of people I knew were killed. A lot of people, you know, from the other side were killed. So I remember those are just some violent years. I was shot at many, many times shot a few times. So it was just one of those things where you remember these things that are happening in the city. And what happened with me was, um, it was a retaliation murder and, uh, you know, I went, there was another opposing gang and, and something happened to one of, you know, one of our guys and I went back, uh, you know, foolishly and I, I, you know, I, I, I committed a crime, I committed, you know, murder, I went back and, and, uh, you know, that was what it was and ended up getting arrested, incarcerated for first degree murder. And I was proud of it for a lot of years because I felt like, uh, you know. Took care of my business. You know, I did what I had to do. They did this and we did that. And that was always how it was. It was tick for tack, right? And, back then you could come here. One of us, we're going to go hit you hard or whatever, you know? So that was how it was. Um, that was my complete utter thinking back then. You come here. One of us, we're going to do it better, you know, or we're going to hit you more. We're going to hit a couple of years, you know, whatever. So that was how it was. And that's exactly what I, you know, perpetrated in my life. And. And that's what landed me in jail, man.

Omar: 21:12

How old were you when this happened? 18. 18, man. Yeah. Okay. And, uh, it's, I mean, that was like the first serious, uh, case you had. Have you gotten like arrested before that? Maybe I

Bert: 21:23

got arrested before that, but I hadn't, I wasn't serious. Yeah. I had a discharge of a firearm, little things like that, where you kind of get out pretty quick or something or, you know, not, not in there too long. This was my first serious case.

Omar: 21:33

Gotcha. Alright, so they grabbed you. How, how long did you end up fighting that, that case

Bert: 21:38

or, oh, so real quick. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Before we go there, lemme just get you one thing, it just came to my spirit, right? Me and you were just in Division 11 last week. Yes. And it's funny you asked me about the age because I see myself when we're in there with those brothers and we're speaking with'em and we're ministering the word and we're, you know, this, my, my life is playing out in my head. I remember exactly what I went through in prison. I remember the hard times, the despair, the worry, the, you know, feeling like your life is over because these guys are facing drama, man. They're not, I, in, in my case, I was under the old law. So I had to do 50 percent of my sentence. So if you get 50 years, you got to do 25. These, these young kids, they're, they're doing a hundred percent. So if they get 60 years, they got to do 60 years straight. That's the truth that sentencing act and there's some real discrepancies in that as well. But however, my point is that's essentially a life sentence. You're the average age for, for, you know, in prison, it's 65 to 69 years old. So that's essentially a life prison, a life sentence when you give someone 60 years and you know, they're already 18, 19, 20 years old. So my point is, um, so those are some of the things where, when we're ministering, I really yearn for, you know, For these brothers and exactly what they're going through, because I know how it feels, you know, I know how it feels. Gotcha. You

Omar: 22:58

know, I want to give a little context to what you just shared. Uh, last week we went in through Koinonia house ministries into division 11 to minister. Uh, we were there from, I think like six to eight 30 and, and they actually led us like onto the deck. Like usually they'll bring the inmates to the gym or to like a little classroom. But this time it was unique cause man, we actually got to go where the cells are at, you know, like on the, with the tables, where the TV was there, guys are on the phone, we got a row of cells on the, on the bottom deck and then you got the top deck and, uh, yeah, that's, that's where we're at. So that's, that's, that's what this brother was mentioning. And we were there talking to these, to these guys that were in there like this, right. We were sitting with them at the table and, uh, I know you mentioned. Like remembering what it was like to be in there, man. And that was like truly unique, like for me, man, like to be actually in there.

Bert: 23:51

It was like, well, not only that, that exact division. I was, I was in the division in 95 when it first opened, I was the first individual on my deck. They had opened up. I remember correctly. I believe it was a, a. And, uh, and I was the first individual on my deck and I, you know, I remember that very well, you know, and I actually got stabbed in that division. True story. Um, you know, big riot kicked off and that's how it was back then. But, um, yeah, it was, you know, so when I was there, I actually have memories of, you know, literally being there in that division, but not that unit. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Same exact. Yeah. Yeah. It was yellow. So there's different colors. That was, that was how they differentiated back then with colors. Every, every pod had its own color.

Omar: 24:31

You know, what's crazy. I was, I was in division 11 in 96, but I was only there like for like two weeks, I think just to, you know, before they transfer you to Joliet and, uh, so yeah, for me, it was unique too. I remember the first time I stepped back in there, man, it's like something in my. Subconscious, like, I don't know, like it reawakened, man, like, man, it's like a deja vu, I guess, like, man, but that was, man, almost 20, well, four years ago, whatever that is a long time ago, but, uh, okay, back, back to there, man, you're in there, man, let's go there, man, you imagine getting stabbed in there. How was life in there, man? Like, I think you were there for a few years of fighting, right? Yeah, I was

Bert: 25:09

there for a few years. You want to talk about your county experience? Yeah. So county back then was a zoo, man. It was probably, you know, at least for some years, if it was probably worse than prison, it's the most prisons, you know, maybe not all prisons, but, um, most prisons, it was, uh, it was a very volatile situation. Um, and cook county, what happens is obviously everything back then was controlled by the gangs, even what cell you go to. So if you're going to go to a cell, you know, they have, I had to go to one of the gang members. That's one of the, the uppers to kind of ask, Hey, where does this guy go? Cause everything was controlled by gangs and you didn't mix. So, you know, back then if you were king, you went with the brothers with the kings. If you were one love, you went with one love somewhere, you know, that was just how it worked. So, when I was there, I started in division six and then eleven and then division nine. I was there for a lot of years. Most of my years in nine. And there was a lot of gang chiefs in nine, a lot of, cabezas as we used to call them. And, and because of that, there was a lot of other things. They were, you know, in Cook County jail drugs, um, you know, all kinds of contraband, stuff like that. So in jail, the thing I remember the most about jail, and I think that was the most unnerving thing was the constant tension. It could literally fly, you know, a riot kick kickoff at any moment. And you know, the funny thing is you, you, you can, you know, when there's something going on because the tension is there and you know, I was there for so many years, you could just start looking around and you start seeing people's faces, but body language. And you could also sometimes see when guys come out with the long sleeve, you know, stuff on, they got body armor under there. You know, they got the magazines on their arms. They got stuff wrapped around their stomachs and their extremities. So if they get stabbed there, you know, they don't die, you know. So there's a lot of nuances like that in jail that just can't, if you've never been there, I don't, I don't even know kind of how to quite explain it. But, you know, one of the things I do remember, I tell people, you've seen Braveheart before, right? Yeah. Remember in the war when they just go crazy and they meet in the middle and they're, you know, going nuts on each other. That was how I remember Cook County, you know, like when big, some of them big riots, just two gangs meeting right in the middle and just, you know, yeah, it was archaic, you know? So that was some of the things I remember, um, me specifically, I was always, um, you know, I think I still am, you know, I hope at least it was reasonable. And, you know, when I had a slot or when I was ever in charge, I always try to do things, you know, diplomatically before, because I know. What happens when, when things don't go right and there's war. I know what war looks like. There's carnage. There's a lot of, you know, step bags. There's, there's things where they, you know, it follows you. And, um, so I was always wanting to try to deal with things the right way. And sometimes that just wasn't possible. You know, a lot of times it wasn't possible where sometimes it was just, you know, but the truth is that all goes back to the state of mind. When you're lost, you're lost. You don't know that you're lost. You know, you think you're doing the right thing. You know, you think you're noble. You think you have all these things. Every man is right in his own ways. Right. So I was sure right in my own ways until I knew better. But yeah, Cook County jail to make, it was, it was a very hard place. Um, mentally I think was the hardest place. And that was what I seen most people break with. They could deal with a lot of the physical, but the, the mental part of how it played on you, uh, sometimes just people falling out of your lives, family member deaths, all that stuff would really be hard on individuals to a point even where, um, I seen guys that started normal and, 10 years later, they're taking pills, they're walking around with their mouth open, slobbing, you know, it's, you know, some real tough, tough realities, you know, and then other guys who succumb to other things, all kinds of stuff, man. I could, there's nightmare after nightmare, you know, now real quick, I think it's much different now than it was then. And I could kind of see that when we were on the deck last week, um, back then it was very, very heightened. You couldn't come on the deck like that. Outsiders couldn't come on the deck. And you got those guys walking around. Everybody had knives on them. Um, Guys had drugs on them. Guys were doing drugs, you know, in, in the wings and sometimes in the cells, you would smell marijuana, you know, all kinds of stuff. So yeah, you would not permit it to just open. Yeah. We're just going to come on the wing and do what we do. All right. That was probably a note.

Omar: 29:18

I know. That's one thing you mentioned over walking is like, man, these have to ask permission from everybody, not just one, right. For whoever would have, like you mentioned a head or whatever. You got to

Bert: 29:27

figure it. There's a lot of things, nefarious things going on. So. They're not going to let you in on their secrets, you know, they're not going to let you in, just come in and, you know, with impunity and yeah, just take a look around, you know,

Omar: 29:37

they're not going to do that. Was it when they, uh, was it a Richard Speck when it went in there? That's when they started shutting down everything. Right. But yeah, I don't want to get sidetracked, but, uh. Okay. So you're there in cook county. How, how many years did you do there before you finally got sentenced? And then, uh, six years, six years. Okay. And then from there, obviously they, they find you guilty. Let's go to that day, man. Like the day when the sentence came through, the verdict was reached to take us through the, the emotions or

Bert: 30:03

what was going on cases. Okay. And, I, I couldn't even bond out because of those cases. So let's go to the, to the sentence right when I got found guilty of my, my case, someone testified against me, one of my co defendants, um, and this is somebody

Omar: 30:18

from you grew up with somebody you're out there. Yeah.

Bert: 30:21

Gotcha. And this just goes to, you know, obviously I hold nothing against this. Okay. He was a pawn in God's plan, you know, God's plan, you know, however, um, this just goes to show you a lot of us had these things about loyalty, who's loyal, who's not, we don't know that. You know, no one knows that, you know, so a lot of people confide in this and that, and none of that stuff's real, you know. People will flip on you in a heartbeat. There's things, you know, people that you would have never thought did this, did it, you know? So I just, say that because some guys think they're slick out there and that I'm going to get away. This guy, I'll never say none. And I just, you know, or like,

Omar: 30:54

like my guys are real, you know, I got the real guys with me, you know? Like,

Bert: 30:57

yeah, I don't believe that, you know, cause that's, that's, that's, that's not a real thing. Um, unfortunately it's, you know, that's just human nature. So this individual that, you know, I knew my whole life, I grew up, but I'm just wearing babies. Uh, you know, did that. And, you know, like I said, I hold nothing against him at all. I don't want to belittle him or none of that. That's not the purpose of that. It's, you know, guy, he was just being used by God really, you know, not even. But anyhow, um, I remember the judge when I went to trial, you know, she, she didn't like me and, um, she thought I was a bad individual. And I was, she was gonna give me 60 years originally. And I remember when she found me guilty, well, it was the jury, but when they took me in, found me guilty, I sobbed, sobbed. It was, it was like my life was over. The air was let out. I was, I saw her people, my own family, cause I had a very strong support system. My mom and dad were always there for me, my daughter and other people as well. So it was, you know, it was a blessing, you know, for, for, for many of these years. So I stopped and um, When I was about to go in, I remember them asking the judge, can he have a few moments with his wife? Cause I was married at the same. And she said, no, she said she could take his jewelry. That's all I'm going to permit. So I gave my jewelry up and I went back in, you know, to, to, to jail. And, uh, I was, yeah, I was sick about it. You know, I was like, wow, here it is, you know? So. I'm thinking, I don't know what you'll give me. I had to come back from my court date for my time. That was like about a month and a half later. So, but it was devastating when I got found guilty because I really thought I was going to beat it. It's crazy as that sounds. And you know, once again, man, God's a just God, you know, and I was out there. I was doing crimes. I was committing. I was guilty as well, and, um, God's just God, man, with every circumstance, man, you know, God never intended us to go to jail. He never intended us to commit murder. He never contended, you know, intended for us to, to steal all those things. These are the 10 commandments, right? Like rudimentary things, right? So when we do those things, we find ourselves in, in a consequence, but it says with every single thing, God will change for our good. Yeah. Even the consequence, I wasn't a consequence, you know, at that time, I didn't know it, but I wasn't a consequence, but even in the consequence, God did something amazing, amazing. And we'll get to that too. And I think the biggest, most amazing thing, I'm not talking about, you know, some extravagant event, but even salvation is amazing, right? Especially for someone who's very lost. And that was how it was for me. We'll get to my testimony, but I just want to say one thing now. For me, it wasn't this big, bright light. It wasn't emotional. It was very, very real though. And things that I thought were really real, God debunked. He showed them to be false. And the things that I thought were fake, he showed to be real. Cause I thought guys who would go to Christianity were weak. I thought guys, they went to this stuff where, you know, we're fake and running from something takes it. It's much harder for someone to do the right thing than the wrong thing. The way to do the wrong thing is very easy, but to do the right thing, it's much harder. It's much more narrow. So I found that out as well. We all do. Right. Yeah. But, um, that's eventually what, what God was going to instill, but it started with just debunking things in my mind. I was this individual who thought, you know, the organization was everything. I was sold out for this stuff. You know, I had all these ideas about this and that. And God just started changing some physical things in my head. And then he started to change my heart. So we'll get to that though. Right? Yeah.

Omar: 34:41

This happens a little bit later. All right, so let's go. Okay. So, uh, you said she was going to give you 60. What, what happened

Bert: 34:46

there? It's funny. She said by, by God's grace, I'm going to give you 40. She said that from, from the, from the, she asked me, do I have anything to say? I say, yeah. And I said, you know, I said, I'm sorry. I was remorseful. I said a few other things. I don't quite remember. I told her, but she says she pondered it for a while and I knew she did not like me. And she said, you know what? Everything in my heart, my mind and just a minute ago, I was going to give you 60. said, but, um, by God's grace, I'm going to give you 40. Wow. That's what you said, man.

Omar: 35:22

And I'm sure at that moment didn't mean nothing, but now, like you said, going back, you know, of course, that was another

Bert: 35:30

God's hand was in the 30 years straight, you know, 40 is 20. It's a big difference. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. And even though 20 still, you know, significant amount of time, you know, I was 18 when I caught the case and I was still pretty young and you still have a lot, a lot of life ahead. And

Omar: 35:44

so that's amazing that even that sentence, there was like some mercy in there, right? Yep, absolutely. Gotcha. Okay. So they give you the 40, man. Okay. I got to do 20. You already did six. Where, where, where do you, you go from there from the county? How, how does, uh. Stateville. Okay. You want to, you want to, you want to take us through the

Bert: 36:01

transition? So, um, when I got to Stateville, it was, uh, I was in, I was in the first house I was in was a condemned house now. It was H house. And when I was in H house, oh, it was a mess, man. It was like a receiving. And it was bad. It was, it was like bad living conditions, when I got to H house, I was there for maybe a month and then they actually gave me residency in F house. So when I got to F house, I was on three gallery. If I remember correctly, I lived there for a few years. F house was, um, it was a pretty wild spot. The funniest thing about F house was they called it the birdcage. Yeah. Because the whole thing was like a cage, like a birdcage, you know, like those parakeet cages and at three in the morning, four in the morning when they would bring trays, let's say a guy over here on this side of the birdcage would have a conversation with a guy over here, like across, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, screaming from the top of their lungs just to communicate it was I had to really get used to that because I was not used to that. You said three in the morning, three, four in the morning, man. You know, and this would go on all day long. So you had to get, you know, plugs for your ears. You just had to get used to that because it was something I was not used to at all. How, how

Omar: 37:12

many, okay, this is different

Bert: 37:14

decks. Yeah, there's four, there's four galleries.

Omar: 37:16

Okay. Gallery, is that a deck or? You could say it's like a deck, yeah. So, and they go around in a circle. How many cells per gallery approximately? Like, like if you could guess.

Bert: 37:27

Like a hundred maybe? Per

Omar: 37:30

per, so you were saying there's 400 cells

Bert: 37:33

and that might be off. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. I, if I remember correctly. I think I remember I was, it might be less brother, so don't, okay. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want

Omar: 37:42

to, you know, we, we'll go online and figure it out. But anyways, it was, it was a lot of cells, a lot

Bert: 37:46

of people on there. It was a lot of sales. A lot of sales. You can see a lot of different people. It might have been, yeah, it might've been less than that. Right. But, uh, it was, it was a big spot, you know, when people were out, it looked at least, you know, few hundred people for sure, man. So, I, I wanna say like, close to a hundred, something like that. I might be off a little bit, but, um, yeah, it was, and I, I think I was in cell 32. Gotcha. I think I, it was huge though. I mean, it was a big space, man. It goes way up high. It was, uh, intimidating. Yeah. Yeah. You

Omar: 38:12

know, can you talk about living there? I know, um, there was a brother here that mentioned that back then the prisons were wide open is, uh, is back then when the, it was still like people could

Bert: 38:20

get out there, wasn't wide open where you could just go anywhere. There was still, you still have movement yards and stuff like that. Um, and whatnot, but, um, they were kind of clamping down on a lot of, uh, movement. A lot of stuff had happened right before I got there, some stabbings and some guards had killed an inmate and a lieutenant got stabbed, you know, a bunch of times. So, um, they were like, right when I got there, it was like I'm locked down and they were, they were clamping down on something. So things were changing right about the time I got there. That's some wild stuff,

Omar: 38:50

man. That that's the reality of where you were

Bert: 38:53

at, right? Okay. So, I mean, when you go in the chow hall, it's funny because you look around, you see bullet marks everywhere in the chow hall. They start shooting once something, you know, happens in the chow hall, signs everywhere, you hear gunshots sit, you know, get like lay down, you know, because that happens. It's a reality. So when you go around and you start looking around, you see the little, you know, the, the mini, you know, the, the, the shells, the, the, the little holes everywhere in the, in the chow hall. That was something I was looking like, what's all these holes from? And then those bullet holes, you know, are you serious? You know, that was what it was back then. Um, yeah. Yeah. So that was how it was. I was there for maybe a couple of years, maybe a little, yes, less than two years. And I got shipped out of there to Menard. Okay. Menard was a different experience as well. Menard was, it's right by Missouri. Literally it's on the, it's on the Mississippi river. So you could see Missouri from the cell basically. Yeah. And that's, uh, that was a unique experience. So from what I understand, it was an old slave, uh, post. And that whole prison was dug out, you know, from, from slaves, you know, like slaves that were there. So when you're in Menard, you can look up and it's happened quite a few times when I was there. The cows on the, on the, on the, on the farm would fall off the hill will fall off the cliff down into the pit. So what we were at was called the pit. It was dug out completely and multiple times that happened with the cows fell over. Crazy, but, uh, Menard was, uh, you know, steaks out of that dealer, man. You know, they used to do all their own slaughtering. Oh yeah. No,

Omar: 40:28

the ideas. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Remember your slaughterhouse that was like a job you could get like a job and it

Bert: 40:35

was a whole industry. Yeah. You know, and they would be self sufficient with the meats and everything. And then they got away from it. It went to soybean and then kind of, you know, they still had farms and whatnot, but it wasn't at the same level as before it was mostly soybean. Illinois is a huge, uh, I think the number one producer of soybean in the country. Oh, no way. I didn't know that. I'm almost certain that they're still right. Right, right, right. So, um, and we weren't getting the good soybean brother, not the stuff that they're drinking out there, you know, that they think, you know, we were getting the lower, but that was, I was Menard was an experience. Uh, it was about six hours. Okay. For my family. So when they would come and visit me, they would have to stay in a hotel. Right.

Omar: 41:13

Hey, so you're there, you, obviously you're still involved in the, in the gang life. You want to take us? I know you, I know before you were talking about how your mind and your heart started to change, take us to the before and then what happened where that transition began

Bert: 41:27

in your life? Well, at that point in Menard, the funny thing, what I noticed was everybody was trying to stay out of, so they had the prison called Tams that they had opened up. And they were sending people there left and right. You didn't even, you know, there was some, it was primarily for gang chiefs initially, but they, they sent a lot of guys who weren't gang chiefs there, problematic people. If you're getting some big stuff, they'll send you there for a few years. You know, nobody wanted to go to Tams because that was like, you know, super max and super max. It was, you don't have nothing coming at Tams. No movement, you know, no, nothing. So, everybody was, you know, when I got to Menard, it seemed as if a lot of people were trying to stay out of trouble because they had so much stuff that had happened and remind, remind, let me remind this. Um, and when I first got locked up a year later, they did a big sweep of gang chiefs in prison. They had locked up, uh, you know, quite a few gang chiefs and, um, sent them to Colorado super max. A lot of them were charged with federal crimes and stuff like that. And, um, so there was some big things that had happened that were very different when I was there versus when the gang chiefs were still there. A lot of stuff had started crumbling, a lot of, uh, working with, uh, authorities. A lot of guys started, you know, become informants and stuff like that. So there's a lot of things that were happening at that time. It was a turning point versus a few years before that, when

Omar: 42:47

the, when the gangs had more control of the prisons and things like that. Gotcha.

Bert: 42:50

Okay. They were starting to lose control. And if you were a big head, you were going to Tams, or they were sending you out of state. It's called interstate compact, sending you out of state. And you go, you know, who knows where they were doing a lot. I didn't, you know, I wasn't, I never got hit with any of that praise God, but, there was some guys that were always on the edge of getting sent to Tams. Yeah. You didn't want

Omar: 43:12

that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had the brother on here that shared that experience. Yeah. I heard that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So David talked about that. I know that that was not nice, man. Like no movement. I believe the showers came to you. Like you didn't even, it was like, uh,

Bert: 43:27

so you went nowhere at the mail, I believe over an intercom or like over or like a screen wasn't or something. Yeah. Yeah.

Omar: 43:33

Way out. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, okay. So you're there. Uh, you, okay, you, you mentioned something earlier that you looked at people that turn to God as weak, like, man, these guys are weak. So obviously, oh, let me ask you this, uh, faith wise growing up, was God involved in your life and any excellent

Bert: 43:49

question. I should have mentioned that earlier. So, it was for a moment. Okay. When I first started, uh, as a, as a kid, I remember, you know, for originally, we were Catholics, you know, like most people, most Hispanic families and then, um, at some point, we started, uh, my father started going to this church and right there on division at Humboldt Park called Rebano and um, we went for a couple of years. Something had transpired with my father and the pastor there where we stopped going And then after that, we were kind of wayward. We went our own way, you know, we started doing our own things as kids and you know, but I did have that experience now. I don't think I had ever made a commitment. I definitely didn't make any spiritual commitment during that time. I was a kid. I hated going to the church. It was very long. It was, you know, it was one of those things where I was like, oh my, I dreaded it, man. Yeah, it wasn't no two hour

Omar: 44:40

service,

Bert: 44:41

right? It was. No, and we have to go at night and then one day in the week. It was, it was, it was, it was pretty bad, you know, in my kid mind, you know, I want to be doing the things I want to do. This was like torture, you know, so yeah, I didn't want to go there, you know, and my father would made us go in, you know, it was a, You know, it was one of those kind of strict, you know, Latino churches, you know, everything was in Spanish. I didn't speak great Spanish at the time. So it was one of those things where I didn't really want to go out I want to get stuck with this stuff, you know So, you know your kid you always you know And um, but yeah, I did have some experiences going to the church and it was it was something and um So that always you know, that's funny because I I think even that experience always stuck in my mind I don't know how much I remember and how much spiritual equity was there at that time, but I do remember the instances I've seen others and whatnot, that I knew were saved and I knew were, you know, serving the Lord and I was stuck in my mind, you know.

Omar: 45:32

Gotcha. Okay. All right. So, so now you're, you're still there. So like I said, what, begins to transition that where you start thinking about

Bert: 45:40

God or. Okay. So now we got to go to the testimony. Okay. Now it's inevitable, right? Right. This is inevitable. It's inevitable. So this is how this transpired when I got locked up in 95. Now, real quick, Manny mills also instrumental because even before I was saved, I ended up in a prison called Danville correctional center, Manny mills, koinonia house and his ministry. We used to come in every single week. Manny Mill at that time was much heavier and he used to come in and you know, he's Spanish Cubano. So he would talk to especially the Latinos and he, he really pursued me and he knew that I was going there for the wrong reason to meet up with the guys and talk about other things, not the word, you know, and he was still very humble and he was still very pursuing and he still gave me grace. Even though he knew I was there for the wrong reason, he could have said, Hey man, get out of here with that, but he didn't, you know, so many mill. I always, you know, man, he was a big figure in my life in that, in that regard, but there was someone else also that was very, very instrumental even to this day. So when I got incarcerated, there was this individual named Marco David. He was a Chicago police officer. He was involved in my case specifically. And um, his job when the crime happened in 95 was to go interview the witness, the, the victim. I'm sorry. And when he went there, the victim had just died. So he actually was there at the death of the victim and was, you know, I don't know what, you know, exactly, you know, what he, if he, you know, he, but he was there when the victim died. So. Fast forward 11 years into my prison sentence and, um, right at this time, I'm in Danville Correctional Center and a fight kicked off at the big old fight. I end up in seg segregation. The hole bunch of people did about 15 of us did. It's a pretty big fight and I'm in seg, and I'm thinking, you know, the same old lame old, I'm going to get transferred to a max joint. You know, it is what it is. Go do. I'll probably lose six months. Good time, you know, whatever. That was just the way the, you know, it flowed back then. It's all part of being in prison. So at least how I thought. Yeah. So I'm waiting in seg, waiting in seg, and my cousin had sent me a little Bible. And I had never really read the Bible for sure. So I started because I'm in my cell by myself. I'm waiting, no celly working out every day, you know, whatever. So I start reading Genesis, start reading, reading, reading. And as I'm reading, I told you earlier that God had started showing me things differently. So my, the things that I was seeing that I had thought were gospel before was starting to change in my mind. For example, what I thought of the organization. And I started seeing the hypocrisy and the fakeness and the guys who will sell you out and the guys who ain't real and the guys who will trick on you and do all this other stuff that I couldn't even, wouldn't even think of before. I knew that guys had tricked that one, but those guys got dealt with pretty swiftly. You know what I mean? So you thought there was the segment of real individuals and you know, I just got a bigger picture of things. And then I started thinking, wait a second. It's just all I have in life. It's my purpose. That's it. Prison, jail, murder, waking up every day to these four walls, misery. Is this it? So there was some really things that were just changing in my heart and my spirit that were, were, were, were perplexing and really had me asking bigger questions, not to God, just in general. So what I would say was I was at a turning point in my life. I was at a crossroads where. Because I was perplexed because I started becoming, um, you know, um, uh, restless in this and, and looking for some of these answers, where do I find them? Who do I look to what's real? What's not who's real? Who's not. So as I started reading that Genesis, it seemed that the pages, the letters, the words, the scriptures were speaking directly to me, almost like. I mean, I can't be like, this can't be right. Someone, when did they write this? You know, so it was like, it was directed directly towards my life. And even just things like we say in Spanish, consejos advice, like this advice. Oh my goodness. What timely advice, you know? So I had a tremendous, you know, we, we say the remah word revelatory, something that testifies with your spirit. That's what I had in that jail cell. And that's segregation. So I had a rhema word that was imparted to me from God, but even with the rhema words, you have to do something with it. So despite having that word, I didn't know what to do with it. I started making promises. God, I'm going to get out the gang. I'm going to serve you. I'm going to stop smoking weed. I'm going to this blah, blah, blah. I'm stopping carrying a knife. I'm going to, you know, all this stuff. It's, you know, related to the gang, right? So, and I just started devouring the word of God, man, devouring it. I had got up to the book of Jeremiah. And that little time in that month. So there's a scripture, everybody knows it. Jeremiah 29, 11, you heard that see it. You know, you go to Marshall's, you see it on the plaques, you know, because it's a good scripture. God, you know, does have, he cares for our welfare. He has a plan for our life. So sure. Sure. The scripture with the man says for, for, I know the plans that I have for you. Plans, you know, to prosper you and basically an expect an expected end. Some versions read different and I'm paraphrasing, but that's kind of what, what, what it says, you know, plans to give you a hope and a future future. That's the, that's the NLT, which adds a little, but there's no doubt that's what welfare is, right? A hope in the future, God, you know, intends for us to, he cares for that, you know, he, he desires us to have those things in life. But the verses stuck out to me greatly were 12 and 13. It says for then shall you search for me with all of your heart and ye shall find me. And those were some of the things that really penetrated me because I think I realized at that moment, there was something that I had to do in God's pursuit of me. And it stuck with me because I think I thought for a lot of years and maybe it was even kind of, you know, You know, shown to me, all you got to do is say this prayer. And your good. That's I think that's one of the farthest things from the truth. God desires a relationship. It's not a one way street. He desires, he desires something. Not only that he made us that way. He made us relational when we come with our wives. It's a relational experience because we're made in God's image and his likeness. So why would it, why would he, you know, robotize, why would it be something where it was only a one way street now? And. You know, at this point of the juncture, it's always been that way. It's always been something where God wanted something out of your own free will to come to him and pursue him as he pursues you. And that just stuck out to me. I didn't realize I didn't realize that, you know, the fullness of that at that point, but it just really, it just really resonated with me. So at that time I get let out of seg. And I'm like, wow, praise God. I thought I was going to go to a max joint. I thought all of these other things were going to happen. And here I am, let out of seg praise God. So, I get right out and not even skipping a beat. I'm right back in the fold with the guys, with the organization. Totally forgot these promises. I made like it had never happened. A couple of days later, it just kind of like, it just, you know, dawned on me. Whoa. Wait a second. You made promises. You, you read truths. You got ministered to but you know, in that cell. Yeah. What are you doing? Literally, that day, my father had asked me to put Marco David. He had asked me previously. I was kind of giving him some pushback but he asked me that day, can you please make sure Marco's coming up? Can you make sure he's on the list? Now, Marco David was the cop. that had part in me being arrested for murder. He was also a pastor and he knew my father and despite him being the one that you know, was uh, you know, part of, you know, me being arrested. He um, he didn't put the cuffs on me. The detectives did but he was, you know, his investigation and everything was Chicago Police. That's how this works, right? So, when I finally, you know, reluctantly let him up to come and see me. He was very, you know, he was very, I remember his face and everything and he was like, Hey, I just want to sit down and talk, you know, and I, and I thought very cliche is he going to, you know, try to hit me over the head with the word. And I was already, um, offensive towards him. I was already, you know, kind of like when my guards up and, um, know, and then when I met, when I met by offensive is like, I was offended that he was there because. He knew my crime better than I did. He got a chance to see the destruction, death, the things that I didn't even see. So I was offended in the sense that he, he, he knew my sin better than I did. He got to see the results of it. So yeah, I was ashamed. And, um, that was, I think the true gist of it. So when he came to see me, he told me something that I had heard the night. I committed the crime and, um, it was something that just was so clear in my head. This will be your last time. I don't remember exactly how he said it to me, but he said, you know, I feel God is, you know, urging me to let,

Omar: 55:27

let me ask you, you said you heard it. How, how, how did you hear it that night? Almost like

Bert: 55:30

an audible voice. Okay. Almost like an audible voice. Now, that was right after you committed that crime? Before I committed my crime. Oh, before. Whoa.

Omar: 55:38

How would you explain it? Like you, it came to your mind,

Bert: 55:40

to your spirit, like back then I explained it like it was just something in my head, you know, like subconscious or whatever you want to call it. Um, obviously it was the spirit urging me. This will be your last time. It was a warning. It was a spiritual warning. It was a spiritual warning that, um, You know, God, you know, I believe God was showing me even then, you know, the, the, this, you know, this, this is where this is going to lead you. This will be your last time. I don't even know what that meant last time out in the world, what all that meant, but I do know how clear it was in my head. And I did it anyway, despite that voice, I went against that voice and did it anyway. Cause I mean, I knew it had to be talking about exactly what I was doing. So when Pastor Marco came up, he had said something like that. And when he said that, I knew right away, wow, confirmation upon confirmation. And it was like, I was just up there on that visit. And I was, so let me give you the feeling. I was, I was fearful. The reason I was fearful was because I was serving two masters and God's a jealous God. He wants all of our attention can't serve two. So now I had to do something with the organization. I had to get out somehow. I had to tell him that I couldn't be a part of it no more. And back then. It ain't like it is now where you could just do that. There was no, you know, you couldn't just go and say, guys, I'm done here. See you guys later. You know, it didn't work that way. You know, there was a serious, serious violation. You took to get out by grown men, multiple grown men. And that wasn't something that I was looking forward to. I was very fearful about it because I had participated in that before. So I knew what that looked like

Omar: 57:15

in the sense where other guys had walked away for the same reason. Yep. Right.

Bert: 57:21

So I know what that looked like, right? So I mustered up courage or for whatever, not just for that reason, but guys, you know, for whatever reason, right. And that was, you know what it was, but anyway, I mustered up the courage and, um, I went to the guy who had it at the time. And, uh, it was an individual who was locked up for 42 years, one of the cabezas and the only individual that could have done this and the whole IDOC. And I told him. shaking in my voice. Hey, you know, God has called me. And I'm serving two masters. I can't do both. This is something that I've tugged in my heart. You know, I love you brothers, but this is what God is calling me to do. I have to get out whatever I have coming. I'll take tonight and night yard and I'll go on a month bunk rest because they were going to destroy me, right? So this brother was looking at me because he knew me very well. Just looking at me shaking his head. He said come see me tomorrow. Okay, so I came the next day to see him. And he was like, sit down. So he started talking and he was just there looking at me very like, um, you know, just studying me and I'm like, okay. And he was like, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to let you go without being touched. Not, one person is going to touch a hair on your head. Nobody in the whole state is going to touch you. It's like, but I'm going to tell you this, and this is my word. If you come back to the organization, even dip one toe back into the water, I'm going to give you what you should have gotten. So not only did God preserve me with the thing I was most fearful about, he deterred me to ever go back to that lifestyle. Because I knew if I even got back into it a little bit, that's what I had coming. Right. What a deterrence, right? It's a double blessing, right? Double blessing. So the next 10 plus years I walked in that in the newness of. And the newness of what gets, I know there's a lot of more meat in that and the newness of faith and learning scripture and being saved in prison and serving God while in prison and so much more, man, take

Omar: 59:42

us through the transition. Okay. They let you walk away. How did your life change in there? Like, as far as even the interaction with the guys, your own guys, or even the guys on the other side. So

Bert: 59:53

real quick, when you start something new, no one really believes you at first. So they were like, I just went to a phase, you know, a month or two. Right. Even about some of my own family members and friends were thinking that too. I, yeah, you, you know, and then as you're more consistent, people start to buy in a little bit, but are not fully sold. Right. And then as you're really, you have longevity people know, wow, this is a new individual. So I got pushback from some of the guys. They were like, ah, he's phony, he's a punk, whatever. And that bothered me because I really cared about what those guys thought about me. Yeah. And I was very ashamed to read the Bible in public. I wouldn't take it to the day room and read the word, but I would stay, stay in my cell and read the word, but the, but the, you know, we called it a shield, you know, the, the toilet paper with the towel. So no one could look in the, you know, the cell and I would be in their study. At this time too, I was involved in a lot of other schooling. Like, um, you know, trade schools and all kinds of other things, college, I got my degree in prison, multiple degrees in prison. One of them was, my, my theology degree, but, um, that was probably the degree I care most about, you know, then they had school at that time, the person I was in. So I, you know, I had, you know, got my HVAC degree in prison. Uh, you know, I got construction occupations and multiple other things, associates degree, bachelors, different things like that. So they had schooling, which was, I was, I was staying really, really busy. So I was working school. And the faith in the work we'll work. Well, what are you doing in there for work? I had several jobs at that particular time I was maintenance. So I was doing a lot of little things, construction stuff around prison, prison, cabinets, toilets, uh, you know, stuff working on, the rooftop units with the air conditioners and furnaces up there, you know, different things like that, the stuff that they would let us work on.

Omar: 1:01:35

And that, that, that makes your time go by easier, man. When you're waiting, man, you're working, you're going to

Bert: 1:01:38

school and man. Yeah. And I did other things as well. I worked at home. I worked at home. So, sowing place, I did all the silk screening and stuff like that. I had several jobs, but the last seven or eight years I was an optician. It was in a different prison. But when I was in Danville, that's what I was doing. Gotcha.

Omar: 1:01:56

All right. So, okay. You did, they're watching you. And obviously you mentioned the word longevity. You, you keep walking this walk, you keep

Bert: 1:02:04

seeking God. And it's, it's like, God's going through a purging. In my life and all the things that I ought not to be do, which are many things, my language, my, my sin that I kept on holding on to fornication, all those things, you know, whatever, you know, I may have been looking at, you know, uh, pornography, stuff like that stuff. A lot of the guys in prison are dealing with, and you know, are part of we're all little things that God was starting to purge from my life. And in that process of purging those things, he started purging out some of the people that were in my life. And as funny as it sounds, replacing them with new people. So I started as, three years down the line as being saved. I almost had a whole new group of people that I knew that I was associated with. A lot of them were from Midwest Bible church. They hung on to me, like they accepted me like no one else. And a lot of this was because directly my mother and father, my mother and father were saved a little bit before me, maybe a year or something like that. So that was my father's urgency. My father was a great man of God, a great man in general, but he was a great man of God. And he really cared. He loved me so much, cared about what was happening with me, what I was doing. Um, how I progressed physically, mentally, spiritually above all else. So that was why his urgency were bringing pastor Marco in was for me. So he always made sure anything he was a part of, I was a part of even when I wasn't there. So even when I was in prison, yeah, it was there at the church and it was like, I was a part of new Midwest Bible church. So all the people that were there started to people that were around my father, my mother started clinging on to me as well, coming to visit me, phone calls, all that stuff. And it was one of those things where it was a growing process because now I have this whole segment of people that I probably wouldn't be around otherwise. Yeah. If I was still in my old, you know, state of mind, right. So, yeah, and that, that's just how it started. He literally put, started purging out the old and restoring with the new people that he really equitable relationships, iron sharpening, iron, uh, people that were really, truly lifting me up, praying for me, contending for me in so many different ways. That's what he started doing. So the last 10 plus years, it was like every day was something new. You know, so I didn't look at prison. I looked at prison as a ground to grow. I looked at it as a time as an incubation period that I was growing. I was learning and I was becoming the man of God that I am today. And let me say those times I had in prison. I'm still reaping fruit from them. I'm still bearing, you know, blessings from that time in prison. I haven't had the same Availability is time. I'm a, I'm a family man. I work constantly. We don't have the same time. There was times in prison where I was reading four or five hours a day. Yeah. The word of God and studying and just having that, you know, I wrote a book in prison. Um, so, and it's a very good book. A matter of fact, um, it's called redeemed. The subtitle is the rebirth of a Latin King. By Bartholomew Berrios, uh, I could give you the link if you go. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Omar: 1:05:16

Yeah. If you could share it, yeah, yeah, definitely put it, I'll put it on the, like on YouTube and on the show notes or even on the audio, you know, they'll be able to click on there and go, go, go find it for sure.

Bert: 1:05:24

The book is a ministry tool. That's really what it is. And it's a very good synopsis of prison and it kind of like what we talked about today, but so much more in depth, we're talking about the neighborhoods, the prison life, and then, you know, what, what it leads to with reform and spiritual change. And just so you know, I'm a huge proponent of that reform. I don't think there's any reform that's truly lasting as spiritual reform. You know, I see a lot of guys who go and they don't, they never get back in gangs. They never get back in prison. But I see many of them that are still lost, that are still, uh, spiritually vacant. They're still, you know, missing. They have that void still. You can clearly read it on them, you know, they're trying to plug it up with a lot of different things. And some of them are good dudes, good people doing good things, but it's good things. They had their head on straight, but that spiritual void is something that's very recognizable. Yeah. And I recognize it. Oh, right. Right. So for me, you know, I always come from a spiritual standpoint and I know the true one long lasting forever, eternal thing. It's the spirit and that salvation is, is something that never goes away, never goes away. So we could go ahead and you could do a lot of good things and praise God, you know, God, you know, a lot of that is honored, you know what I'm saying? But God intends and desires for us to, you know, to seek him first, you know, and then once we seek him, we're able to put in perspective, everything else. I

Omar: 1:06:40

know right now you mentioned about you're still bearing fruit of those years in prison. I know we were talking before. You, you had the opportunity, I believe, to file a motion to get you out of prison, like earlier. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. That story. And what, what happened

Bert: 1:06:56

with that? So I was, so in my case, the individual I told you to testify against me, we had found that there was something that was promised to him. So in the technicality in the case, it was something that the judge couldn't do. And she did anyway. And um, when we found that in the transcript, we automatically put a motion in and the motion was granted right away. So my case was remanded and

Omar: 1:07:24

Remanded what, what does

Bert: 1:07:25

that word mean? That means basically they were going to send me back to, either, you know, for, for some type of technicality or a new trial. Okay. So in other words saying that, Hey, what you did here was error. You couldn't do that. We can true. This is a promise on what you did. Okay. Got you. It was, it was, you know, it was all recorded. So basically, you know, the most likely it was, I could have probably got, went home and, um, I knew that at that time though. I knew God was dealing with me. I was a baby Christian and I knew I wasn't even already. How many years were

Omar: 1:07:53

you locked up at this point when, when this was happening? I

Bert: 1:07:56

want to say about 12 years. Okay. About 12 years in. Maybe a little bit longer than that. And, um, the judge had said some things, that they were, they were construed as a promise. They were really, they were, and it's illegal for someone, when they cop out, when they testify against someone to promise them a sentence, that's essentially what happened. So, long story short, once the, the appellate court seen that they remanded me and the remanding is, you know, some type of, they're going to give you some type of, you know, resolution, either a new trial, a time off, something, you know, I'm not exactly sure. Like a re

Omar: 1:08:30

sentencing in a sense or?

Bert: 1:08:31

Could have been. Yeah. Okay. So it's usually, usually it's a retrial. Right. You know. But, um, anyhow, whatever the case may have been, that was what they were doing. It was a technicality. So it's one of those things where they could just vacate. You can vacate it right then. Time considered serve something like that. Let you go. Don't know how. Yeah, yeah, right, right. And then maybe nothing could have happened where it was just like, well, it's harmless there. But it was very unlikely in this specific case. Because it was

Omar: 1:08:54

some serious. Yeah,

Bert: 1:08:55

yeah, right, right. At least, you know, but the law, I know that was, yeah, that was considered, you know, So at this time, I was still a baby Christian. I wasn't nowhere near where I was supposed to be in the faith and God was just ministering to my soul. I wasn't ready. It was like, be still, you're not ready. So at some point, you know, when, you know, I was praying and fasting, um, it appeared to me that God was telling me, be still. And I knew I was guilty. I knew what I had done. And, um, I withdrew that motion. And did the rest of my time. So, you know, a lot of guys were in prison, even some of my own family. Are you crazy? Blah, blah, blah. But I withdrew that motion and did the rest of my time. Man.

Omar: 1:09:38

Did, did you have a lawyer helping you at this point? The way with

Bert: 1:09:41

that? I had a couple of lawyers that they didn't, they, I was doing it pro se, but yeah, they were doing background stuff. And what, what did they tell you when you went crazy? They were like, please don't, please don't, you know, and I did it anyway.

Omar: 1:09:53

Man. So how many more years did you serve by, by withdrawing that about nine years,

Bert: 1:09:59

eight and a half, nine years, something like that. Yeah. And at

Omar: 1:10:02

that moment, you just felt God telling you, Hey,

Bert: 1:10:04

man, stay behind. I knew what God was telling me. It's not like I felt, I knew God was telling me he was dealing with me for sure. And I don't know what the, you know, what the outcome would have been if I would have got killed when I got out, I would have backslid completely. Who knows? You know, and that's why salvation is a miracle, right? Because when you're saved, there's a lot of things. There's, there's, there's a lot of. You know, there's, there's, there's a lot of training that goes into being a soldier. And the same thing is true being a spiritual soldiers. There's a lot of training that you have to undergo to be a valid soldier, to be someone who's, you know, who's effective, so God knew if I'm going to use him, I need him here for another nine

Omar: 1:10:41

years, man. That's, that's deep, man. And cause you know what I encounter. A lot of people, believers that believe, man, I come to God. Now everything should be good. All the blessings are going to come, but you felt in a sense, like God telling you, man, you need to stay behind bars for,

Bert: 1:10:59

let me reiterate. I knew God was talking to me. It's not, it's not like I felt, I knew God was dealing with it. There's a lot of other things. I could be here for two hours talking about just that, but, um, I know God was dealing with me in that sense. You know, where, I knew that he wanted me to be still and he wanted me to be where I was and, he, he wanted to do something specific with me and he did, man, he did. And that time I needed every single day. I was there every single day was useful. So when I was there, every single day was useful. Every single day was something new. Every, every, every single day was a learning moment. I mean, it was, it was like victory after victory. And that's what the word of God is, right? That we go from glory to glory. So there was a lot of, I mean, tremendously beneficial things that happened in prison that would have never happened if I was out. I can't say the same if I would have been out. I don't know what the outcome would have been, you know? But I do know that what does it gain a man if he gains the whole world, but yet loses his soul and that was the scripture that studied my heart so much. I get out and I could, you know, maybe even, you know, not go back to what I was into, get a good job, work, be fruitful, you know, all this other stuff. What does it gain me if I lose him? What does it gain me if I lose my perspective, my spiritual perspective and took me some time to, to come to, you know, and it was very, it was very, it was a huge struggle for me to make that decision, you know, and I did though, you,

Omar: 1:12:23

you made it a man serve the rest of the time now, now take us right before you, you get out. How did those last few weeks, days look before you, man, before you finally

Bert: 1:12:35

get released, man. So, I, I think the last seven years, and then the God blessed me tremendously when I was in prison, even financially. And So I just want to touch on that because I think, you know, prison, you know, most guys make 29 a month. If you're working, it's not a very good paycheck. So, I mean, imagine making that a dollar a day, you know, that's basically what it is, you know, you're making a dollar a day and it's not a very good, uh, you know, they work you hard when you win, they're usually working. So, that's not a very good, uh, paycheck. So. So, God, uh, you know, God blessed me even in there. I became a licensed optician and Dixon correctional center for the last seven years, I was making eyeglasses. No way. Yep. I was making glasses and I was doing some very technical stuff with glasses, special jobs, and lenticulars, and all kind of crazy stuff. So, yeah, it was the last 7 years were amazing. I was a hospice volunteer. That was very rewarding. Um a lot of guys were dying in prison. Uh and and we had a hospital in Dixon, a whole hospital. So, a lot of the older guys, they were there. They would go to the second floor and it's kind of where they were kind of laid out to pasture. Man, so we got to walk with a few of those brothers at the end of their life and you know, so it was, it was something brother, it was

Omar: 1:13:49

something. Well, what was those? Is there maybe one that stands out? Maybe, I don't know, um, something that comes to my mind, maybe one that you led to the Lord or something? You know

Bert: 1:13:59

what? And I, I, he said he, you know, he made a profession a few times. Yes. But he was, he was a little bit of a character, this individual. Okay. His name was Oscar and, Oscar was 32 years old. He ended up in the second floor because he had hydrocephalus. Hydrocephalus is water liquid in the brain and they put a shunt in his brain and he his situation got very bad very quick. And his brother was only 32 years old. Wow. And he ended up dying four days after I got out. So when I got out, he died literally right after that, which was tremendously sad. But, uh, that's the one that I think sticks in my mind the most, Oscar. It's because I knew he was so young and he was completely, we had to do everything for him, bathe him, change his pamper, you know, diaper, everything, everything. And, uh, he died right after we got out, he was so young, you know, he was getting deported back to Mexico. So I was really hoping, you know, cause he, he only had a few years. He wasn't doing big, big time. And, uh, yeah. And a lot of that was negligence in the prison because, uh, they don't, they don't do the best for a lot of guys that you kind of, uh, get in a real bad state, you know, and that's what they, what happened with him. Man.

Omar: 1:15:15

That's rough, man. It is. So, so you're there and you said in the hospice, we're watching, you know, Is, do you, could you recount like how many guys you've seen pass, like while you

Bert: 1:15:25

were there serving? Well, maybe in specifically under my care, I seen quite a few that were not under my care, but about under my care, maybe three or four. So, but under other people's, you know, maybe 15, something like that, maybe a little more than that. Um, sometimes they would get sent out to the outside hospital and die there, but they were under our care for some time, you know? So, yeah, I seen that quite a bit, man. It was, uh, it was heartbreaking at times. And It was very scary too.'cause you don't want to end up in that, you know, you don't want that to be your, your end result where you're in the second floor or hospice. Someone's taking care of you and you, you know, you can't do for yourself and whatnot. So that's a very scary situation. Yeah,

Omar: 1:16:03

yeah, definitely. I'm sure it makes you reflect, right? Like, I mean, just man, you, you're, you're locked up and you're dying behind bars basically,

Bert: 1:16:12

right? Like Yep, yep. That's your final, your, your end man. And I know a lot of guys who did it with Grace, man, you know. They faced it in, in, in spiritual wellness, and then I met some other ones, not so much, you know, you know, that's a tough situation, um, that was a huge, if you get sick in there or anything, you know, things, you know, like Oscar was something that was very troublesome because he was a huge young guy. And he just a couple of years before that, he was straight up, you know, playing handball with us, soccer, all that stuff where he's, you know, very vibrant and just deteriorated so fast. And it was something that could have been, should have been caught and it just wasn't, you know, right, right.

Omar: 1:16:48

Oh, that's, that's tragic. Definitely sad, man. So, so you said that was almost, I guess, your last job right before you, you were

Bert: 1:16:55

released. Like, yeah, so I did that for about seven years, six and a half, seven years. And I went home from that job. So I went home from there and you had asked me what it was like. It was a blessing brother. It was a It was one of those things where I had prepared myself. I didn't want to, I didn't want to get too crazy. I remember the last thing I watched, not the last thing, because the Cubs won in 2016. Okay. I'm a huge Cubs fan. Oh yeah. Yeah. Same here, man. I've been watching them my whole life. So when they won.

Omar: 1:17:22

Definitely a lot of heartbreak right throughout the years.

Bert: 1:17:25

They've been stunk for so many years, you know, so to watch this, I'm watching and I'm just thinking like, okay. Well, where were you at when you were watching? I was on a, me and Ronnie were cellies at that time. Oh, Ronnie,

Omar: 1:17:35

who, uh. Ronnie Carrasquillo. Oh, no way. Okay. So he got to watch it

Bert: 1:17:38

too. Yeah. Yeah. So he got to win him or celly's and he's over there. Cause he's not such a Cubs fan. Talking. Oh yeah. It wasn't good. It's

Omar: 1:17:44

not really, you know, into sports, more sox than cubs I think.

Bert: 1:17:49

But, um, I think he just likes talking mess. I was a Cubs fan, you know? So when they hit, when Roger Davis hit the home run and then went into that delay. I was devastated. I was like, Oh my God, went back to 2003 when, you know what I'm saying? Bartman, Steve Bartman. I was like, this can't be real. You know what I'm saying? I was praying, all kind of stuff, man. And then, um, you know, they came back and, you know, they won it. And I was like, wow, it was, that was the last thing I remember, the big thing. Okay. That happened, obviously, October 2016. I got out February 2017. Oh, okay. All right, right, right. Just a few months later, I was like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the last big thing I remember in there, you know? Gotcha. It was like, wow, you know, and then after that, but I was like, wow, they won it, you know, so. That was what it was. Yeah

Omar: 1:18:29

Gotcha. Gotcha. So hey, that's something man. I'll never forget that. But anyways, okay Take us to the day, man, the morning you're still behind bars. You're a prisoner.

Bert: 1:18:38

So they, you know, the police have a lot of, you know, the guards would say stuff, a lot of stupid stuff. Ah, we'll see you back or don't come back or something like that. As if it's even an option. And for me, that was offensive because when they would say stuff like that, it was like, don't come back. You think I want to be here? But a lot of guys do come back. That's what's sad. You know, they.

Omar: 1:18:54

And I'm sure you've probably seen that, right? Like, uh, guys leave and come back or no, like, your time's in prison, right?

Bert: 1:18:59

So the recidivism rate in, in, in Illinois, at least at that time, was about 75 percent within the first year. And that was mostly non violent cases, but that was about the recidivism rate, about 75 percent within the first year. So. Yeah, that's alarming. Yeah. But for me, it wasn't even an option. It wasn't even close to being an option. I would never come back, you know? So, I guess, you know, anything is possible. Who knows what could happen in life, you know? But my point is, I, I would never, you know, I would never, you know, at least I thought in my, in my spirit, I could never put myself in a situation to make me, you know, vulnerable like that again. And, and another thing too, to be honest with you, towards, you know, after you do 20 plus years, you get a little. Cause the prison started changing where now the police had control. So when I had left the police said, you know, the administration had complete control, the inmates were, you know, getting kind of stood on, you know, where it wasn't, it was like, you know, they, send you to seg, there was a lot of things where you were kind of getting treated in prison and not treated. That's not the right word, but you weren't getting very looked after. There was a lot of guys who don't have family, who don't have anything. And these guys were just in prison hurting. So, um, it was just one of those things where, yeah, I was a little, you know, you get become a little annoyed by, and then there's a lot of, you know, sometimes there's racist individuals and whatnot, or people that are, you know, rural, the rural and urban things sometimes collide. Um, you know, I was a city boy. I was used to certain way and, you know, it's just one of those things where I was a little, you know, towards the end, I was a little, I was, I was very thankful to be getting out because I was probably a little bit, you know, at the end of my rope, but that, that's, uh, one of those things where, um, You know, that individual we spoke about 46 years, and he gave me a lot of inspiration because he was denied over 30 times in the parole board. And when I would see him still so encouraged in the faith, he was my cellmate. So I would see it when I was to see him. So still encouraged in the faith and me so downtrodden because of what happened with him. It bothered me. I mean, I mean, I could just got to be so happy. So, so

Omar: 1:20:59

he's getting denied parole. And he's, and you're the one that's

Bert: 1:21:03

discouraged. Obviously he was sad. He was, you know, he was disappointed, but it wasn't like, you know, me, I'm, I'm, I'm really upset, you know, like, this is, you know, it's an injustice, all these other things. And he was just like, Hey, let's, let's keep on trucking. Let's have faith in the Lord. And you know, God has, he's always, you know, maintain God has a plan for me. God has, God had things in store for me. And then we seen it come to pass, despite all against all the odds. And I don't want to tell the story cause he might be on the show at some point. So let me not, you know, tell too much, but, um, he was just a huge encouragement. You know, he was a huge encouragement to me because, you know, I knew that was, I always put myself in his shoes. Yeah. Yeah. 46 years. And I did 21 years. 20, you know, he did double my bid, you know, plus, you know, you know, so I, I just think about that and to do that type of time, man, I'm 46 years old. He did my whole life in prison, you know? So, it's one of those things where, to do that type of time, you really have to have some type of spiritual gift to be able to do that and still Be spiritually uplifted, still be an encouragement to others and still be viable in the faith, right?

Omar: 1:22:10

You know what? Let's talk about that a bit, a little bit. I know you mentioned all the blessings from staying in there. Talk about the blessing of having somebody like that as a cellmate for, I don't know how long he was your cellie for, but man, just having somebody with that spirituality,

Bert: 1:22:24

fervor, you know, like I had two brothers. Ronnie was my, my second one. Um, I had another brother before him named Carlos. Carlos was another very good friend of mine, another brother, strong in the faith, and we, you know, both of us had different, you know, and in different times, it's really when you have that brother, cause iron sharpens iron, there's things that, that transpire when you have a true brother as, as a cell mate, that'll never happen with someone else. And, and, and most of the time, like for instance, Bible studies. Just talking about scripture, just getting into something where it's something about advice or something that happened and you get their spiritual perspective compared to yours. Little nuances like that, they go a long way and that you grow from, you know, maybe even unbeknownst to that individual that you're like, wow, that was a spiritual tidbit. You know, yeah. I was chunk there, you know, I could use that. Like I was telling you about his encouragement, Ronnie's encouragement. Carlos had things about him that would encourage me. He was, a many things, you know, that, that, that he did that. And I'm sure, and I had things that encouraged him as well. But, um, Carlos had things that he would do that encouraged me as well. So there was always things like that he was patient, so little things like that, you know, when you have a cell that's. You know, that's that's in the faith. You just don't get that with a celly. Who's not right. That was all God ordained to, because those were all steps I took in my, in my journey without those things, I, you know, I'm sure, you know, I would be a different individual, you

Omar: 1:23:46

know, right, right. Okay. So. We keep trying to get to it, but you're still behind bars in the story, man. Take us, he took us to that day where you finally met. Hey, they finally let

Bert: 1:23:57

you out. So when I finally got out about seven years ago, um, uh, man, it was, it was, it was a glory brother. Manny mill met me at the gate and a bunch of my family there, a bunch of family members that were there. I, you know, just a bunch of family members that were there, my loved ones. And he met me at the gate like he promised he took me out to his office, which is, uh, I think it's called ecclesiastic or something egg. Oh,

Omar: 1:24:19

yeah. Yeah. The breakfast place breakfast place. That's actually where we went when I recorded the podcast. We don't, we were there. Is it eclectic? Eclectic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was called. We didn't, we didn't, we

Bert: 1:24:29

didn't Illinois. So we went there and everybody met up there, a bunch of my friends and family, you know, a bunch of bunch of people in the faith, you know, Manny Mill, Koinonia house and we had breakfast there. We had a really special time and that was my first day and then I ended up going to my parole where I was staying at parole and, yeah, it was, it was very memorable. My family was there, they kind of slept over and we just had a blessed time and we ate good and reminisce talking, you know, all that stuff, man. So. It was, it was unique, brother. It was something I'll never forget.

Omar: 1:25:00

Gotcha. It did the world or like, or the home seems smaller when you got out. Like, um,

Bert: 1:25:06

it seemed bigger. I mean, you see small cells, yeah. Um, the phone, when they handed me a phone, that was funny. And I'm like, what is, you know, square looking thing. When I got locked up, there was pagers. I had a pager, you know, I remember when I got, you know, in 95, when, when I first got locked up. I only had two CDs. The CDs were still pretty new. Yeah, yeah. No,

Omar: 1:25:25

yeah. You know, even though to the early two thousands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in 2000, 2001, yeah. Early two thousands I was still You had the, the CD

Bert: 1:25:34

book. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, in my, in my, in my room, I had a bunch of tapes, you know, a bunch of tapes. That was what? You know, we're still pretty, you know, still mostly, you know, so to see these were still kind of a new thing. And I think when I finally had enough money to buy one, I got one or whatever. So I had one right before, but that was still a newer technology, you know? So to give you a little perspective, that's how it was. So yeah, it was all, it was all pretty new to me and the technology and whatnot. And. The internet and all that stuff and whatnot, the music sounded weird. I'm like, okay, so everything was no, you know, it's like,

Omar: 1:26:06

Hey, so, so you, you've been out, uh, you said seven years now, approximately how, how was any highlights from your seven years or, uh,

Bert: 1:26:13

my beautiful wife, our married, uh, we have a kid, we have a son, uh, we also have, you know, all together, our whole, uh, dynamic is four, I have an older daughter. We have Chris and Natalie, my older daughter, Grace, we have Chris and Natalie 2021. My older daughter is going to be 29 in April. Um, and uh, then we have the little guy, which is Joshua. It's two years old. Yeah. So we got a beautiful family. Um, we're very blessed. Yeah. So, that, and I work a lot. I'm a pipe fitter. I'm a, you know, uh, HVAC, uh, heating ventilation, air conditioning, a lot of different applications in that. And, uh, man, as you know, that's, that's, that's what it is. Every time I have a chance to get into ministry going a couple of times a month, cook County jail. We also visit a prison or two. Uh, when I, when I have the availability, Kewanee prison. Some other things, those are my highlights, man. Go to church every week. I'm a deacon at our church still with Midwest Bible church right there in Cicero. Um, still pastor Marcos, my pastor is very, my, he's, he's my spiritual father. You know, as he's, you know, he's, he's someone that's been a mentor, a spiritual mentor in my life. Um, my father passed away a year ago, so God bless him. He's, he's in heaven, man. You know what I'm saying? He's with the father. He's with the king of Kings. So, um, Yeah. I mean, we've had ups and valleys, but let me say this real quick. Everybody, you know, one of the things I remember in prison was everybody was just so eager to get out. That's all they wanted was the opportunity to get out. And me too. I'm sure I wanted that exact thing too. But one of the things I've realized was, what are you going to do when you get out there? And not just what are you going to do for work, you know, but what are you going to do when you get up? How do you stay in line? How do you stay focused? How do you stay in touch? And I'm talking about what, you know, with the father and you know, that answer subjective. It's different for everybody. You know, the word of God says, pray without ceasing. How do you do that? How do you meditate upon the word day and night when you work 12 hours a day, you know? So there's a lot of things that just almost do not see applicable, but that's when we lean on the things, or at least I lean on the things that I learned when I was in prison. How, you know how to stay in tune with the father and the spirit where my spirit and his spirit testify and we're in unison in that way. Not necessarily where you see me kneeling down and that even when I'm driving, it just starts praying, you know, whatever, whatever, you know, it can be very, very, um, you know, small things, so, man, it's a, it's a journey, my brother. It's something that that grows on us and it's something that's lifelong and that follows us into eternity.

Omar: 1:28:40

Oh, yeah, that definitely for sure, man. And uh, like earlier, you mentioned about the blessings that you're still reaping from that and uh, Um, spiritually and

Bert: 1:28:49

being plugged. I mean, just, the blessings of God provides for me, man, I've been very, you know, I've been successful in what I do when I, you know, since I've been out, very thankful for that. I learned that trade in prison, by the way, you know, um, so I'm, you know, very successful in what I do. I've got, it's blessed me in that way. Um, Bless me with, you know, the family that I have, he's blessed me with, you know, loved ones around me, my circle, uh, ministry, different things like that. It's, you know, just been one thing after the other. You know, where I, I just feel very touched to know that, wow, you know, I, sometimes I forget I was even in prison. I have to remind myself like, man, you did 21 years, you know, that's significant, but I forget it, cause you're so caught up in what's going on out here. And now I'm so accustomed to the ways of the world. I'm a little savvy now with some of the, I'm not very savvy, but I, you know, I know my phone and the iPad and things like that. I need it for work too, for what I do, um, things like that. So you, you know, you forget, wow. You know, you remember when you were making collect calls, when someone had to press zero to, or one, you know what I'm saying? One to talk with you. And you remember, you know, all those little things that you kind of forget. Yeah. So I, you know, and that's why when I go in, when we talked about when we were in division 11, it just, it just resonates with me because it reminds me and I yearn for them because I, I go back to when I wasn't exactly in their shoes and I know what that feels like. And I know how heavy that is on your spirit. I know how despair can creep in depression, oppression. I know what those spirits feel like. And I know how, when you feel away, you're all alone. I did years and I did years in seg, you know, when I was all alone, I did times where periods of time where there was nobody there, no, no mail, no, sometimes even, you know, my family was always there for me, but, you know, other people that you consider, you know, whatnot, you know, where it was not there for you and whatnot, and, you know, and, yeah, you go through dark periods in that place, you know? Yeah. You expect because you're in there. Everybody realizes that and time stops. It doesn't stop, man. Life goes on. Sometimes you get marginalized. Sometimes people forget about you. I remember a dude told me in 95. Old, black dude. I remember this old old old guy been locked up for a long time. And you know, back then they know you by what kind of case you find. They used to say, you got a nine one back then means, you know, it's murder. It's the code for murder. A nine 11 and a nine one one. Right. I think that was the code for murder. I don't remember. It was some type of police code, but it was, it was called the nine one. And, um, they asked me, you got nine one. I said, yeah. And, um, he said, you know, and I was, we were just talking and he was like, let me tell you, young brother, you're dead until you get out. And I was like, well, what does that mean? You know, and I think at some point later on, I understood what that meant. A lot of people out of sight, out of mind. And when they see that face again, they see irrelevant again, people want to be back in your life, all that stuff. So take that for what it is. You know, I was never mad at people that weren't around, but I never put a lot of, um, I never put a lot of, uh, you know, you know, Oh, I got to spend time, you know, all that type stuff. I realized what it was, you know, it is what it is. And I'm not going to act like it ain't, you know, I'm not mad against you, but you know, I'm not, you know, I know what, what takes power. Yeah,

Omar: 1:31:55

no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That definitely makes sense. That the man that that statement, you know, like maybe back then we were talking about when you have to go through the experience to realize I know exactly what you're talking about, but you mentioned earlier. How even though it was like a pruning to where God had to remove certain people and then put other people in your life that eventually poured into your life and that you're connected with to this day at church, you know, you have Midwest, uh,

Bert: 1:32:19

Bible church, but that's critical. Yeah. I still have many friends, at least seven, eight, 10. That were instrumental in my walk in prison. They came to visit me. They, we talked on the phone. They wrote me just some people. They were amazing. They were, I'm, I'm still connected with today and we still fellowship on Sunday and other days as well. We have a life group at our, at my house where, uh, every Thursday and yeah, hopefully we'll see you this. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh no,

Omar: 1:32:42

not, not this Thursday. I got to go to a RTO. Oh, yeah. Pastor Rodney Massey from, uh, Stateville, he's going to be sharing, uh, his testimony and they actually asked me to, to pray for him before, you know, how they usually pray for the guests. Yeah. So yeah, I'll be there. Yeah. No, for sure. I'll definitely check it out. Yeah. Yeah.

Bert: 1:32:59

So it's one of the things we have in our church life group. It's just like a Bible study, but it's, it's one of those things where it's more of an Acts 2 Bible study in the home, more intimate, more, where, you know, where we talk about topics, you know, related to the scripture and, you know, we go over it and we, we just get in depth with what that means and how it pertains to our life. Gotcha. It's really unique. What, what, what, what,

Omar: 1:33:19

what, what, what time is that? 7, 7, 7, 7 o'clock. Okay. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I definitely have to check it out,

Bert: 1:33:23

bro. I just want to say one thing. No, no, go ahead, man. I know probably at the end, but, um, one of the things I mentioned, you know, I guess I look at, you know, talking to the audience here, but, um, one of the things, I, I just want to kind of touch on one more time. We spoke about identity. We spoke about not knowing whose we are. That was my biggest thing. And I think that is true for a lot of people out there, especially a lot of young men, especially young men without fathers feel neglected. You know, they feel some of them feel like I said, you know, are marginalized or ostracized or, they're, they're, you know, by themselves here, God created us in His image. And in that image, he created us. He has a plan and a purpose for our lives. Now we can go outside of that plan and do our own plan. And then there's a consequence or results of that plan. And even with that God, when we're saved and when we're doing God's kingdom purposes, he will turn that into good some way, somehow. That's what it says in Matthew, right? Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you. Amen. So when we're seeking the kingdom of God first, even with bad experiences in life, God will change for learning moments for moments to, you know, raise us up. Joseph, when he was in prison, God raised him up and we could keep on going. There's many other characters in the Bible that had the same experience at the worst point where, you know, you thought that, wow, this, this, this, you know, this, this can't be, you know, this is serious. This is what's happening, Daniel and others. And God raised them up. He showed his power in the worst of it. He calls those things, which be not as if they were. Very simple. So he ordains those things in the spiritual realm. We see him come to pass in the physical. So I would just encourage if someone's in that space where maybe, uh, you know, they're involved in gangs, they're young, or even guys who maybe have gotten out of prison and, You know, uh, ex convicts, whatever the case may be, and they think, you know, this is it, you know, or maybe, you know, they're back, you know, in the game, selling drugs, whatever, whatever. Fill in the blank, man. I don't know what's there. Yeah. Fill in the blank. I would just encourage you, man. Search for who you are. Find out what, what God has for you. Find out that Jeremiah 29, 11 passage, find out how you are to pursue him. And, you know, just to remember, man, that, we're God's we're his. And when we serve him and we serve a mighty God, there's nothing too impossible. What the world shuts the door on God opens when they shut the door on Ronnie. We went to the parole board for him. He went from seven votes to one vote. They were never going to let him out. Never. God changed that the same year, took him to court and they released him immediately. Time considered served by all accounts in the physical Ronnie seemed doomed. Yeah. God changed that. It said, I'm going to show you what the impossible looks like. I'm going to show you what man calls fact or what man calls, you know, definitive, right? I'm going to show you my, my power here. Amen. That's exactly what they did with Ronnie. And that's exactly what it does with many others, including myself. So man, we're his, that's our identity. And when we know that we know that we're high priest, we know that we have callings. We know that we have unctions and we have functions. So That's what we need to dive deep into we need guys who are willing to disciple other guys We need churches who are willing to take these brothers in and you know We need people that you know are holding others accountable and you know iron sharpens iron brother, you know, amen So I guess that's just my encouragement. That's something that's been in my spirit. And that's something that, um, that, uh, I know I struggled with and something that will lead you to a lot of dark places when you don't know who's you are. You're going to follow a lot of different paths because the enemy's an identity thief, any kill, steal and destroy. Right, right. So he's going to tell us a lot of lies and he's going to lead us into a lot of spaces that we shouldn't be in. Definitely. And then once we start following after that, it leads us to a place that we don't want to be for longer than we want to be there. Right.

Omar: 1:37:41

Ain't that the truth, man? No, no, thanks for sharing that, man. That's usually, you know, I always tell the guys, hey, any, anything you want to share, you know, any final words, man. But, uh, yeah, that's it. And man, if you could close this

Bert: 1:37:51

out in prayer, man. Absolutely. Absolutely. Father, we thank you for this time. We praise you. We honor you. We know you're a holy god. You're a good god. We bless this brother Omar father god. We know this is a this is a act of a service father god of spiritual wellness father god. We know this comes from a good space and we ask father god that you would Bless him mightily, that you would bless his ministry mightily, that you would bless everyone under the hearing of these words, father God, that you would impart onto them, father God, that you would use them mightily father God, that this would be a mechanism of teaching father God, a mechanism of, of ministry. Father God, something that would maybe, you know, just touch someone's spirit through our words. Father God, that are guided by the Holy Spirit. Just please father. God used used his ministry mightily father. God. We know you will we thank you for this brother his family father God, we thank you for just the hearers father. God We ask father god that you go ahead of us father god and just do something amazing father god that we can once again speak of your glories father god and once again speak of how you do things father god outside of the box and how you do things father god that no one else seem coming. We love you father god and we we pray for those brothers in division 11 where we go and people that we come across in ministry daily father god use us father god work through us mightily father god. You And father god add on to the church father god as you deem fit. And I'm to these ministries as you deem fit for the God use us to touch all four corners of that earth father. God preaching the gospel father. God and baptizing. We love you. We honor you. We thank you for this time. In Jesus name. We pray. Amen.

Omar: 1:39:30

And Jesus name. Amen. Amen. My brothers has been a blessing conversation. The testimony. Uh, you know what? I want to, I want to, uh, plug, uh, um, Koinonia house national ministries again, pastor Manny mill. They have this, uh, um, ministry or radical timeout. It's every Thursday, they meet from six to about seven 30, uh, yeah, it's about an hour and a half, you know, maybe two hours and they meet at a compass church in Wheaton as every Thursday, radical timeout, man, go online. Uh, I'll definitely put a link to that, uh, and on the show notes. Uh, but I know you mentioned like the guys that have done some time and gotten out, you mentioned identity. They don't know whose they are. Man, if those of you that have a past, maybe you're still out here, you're free, man, you don't know your identity. You, you don't know that, man, that God could use you, man, that God could still turn your life around for the better. Come check out one of these services. You'll meet plenty of people who have a background, who have a past and that God has transformed them. Turn around and is using like to minister, you know, like, my brother here are going back in to cook County ministering, giving hope to these individuals that are hopeless. You know, you mentioned anguish, man, just all these feelings that they're going through, man. And, uh, man, come connect. You're going to feel God's, uh, God's love. You're going to feel welcome. So again, like I said, I will put the link up there, you know, go, go on there and check it out. But yeah, go ahead, go ahead,

Bert: 1:40:53

bro. Real quick about that ministry at RTO. It's also for those, the family members of those who are incarcerated. That's really how it started. So they were ministering unto the family members like my daughter was one of the ones and other many other family members were people that they held up, they kept accountable and that they prayed for him were therefore tremendously for many, many years of the loved ones incarceration. So that's another thing. This is also for family members of those who are incarcerated. So just to

Omar: 1:41:24

know, you know what they think you for sharing that man because it's crazy how God works man because recently. I've been meeting people even like during service and different places where they just open up about somebody, a family member being incarcerated. And I even told my wife, man, well, what is God doing? Like, this is not something that used to happen before. And now it's almost like God, man, like Jesus said, man, when, when I was in prison, you visited me and I believe, uh, pastor Manny mills said. There's a nation behind bars. That's the way he explained it and that they're back, man, his sheep, a lot of his sheep, a lot of those that he loves are behind bars, man. And, uh, I love what Pastor Manny Mills said. He said, it's not just about making the baby and what he meant by that is just going in there and evangelizing them, getting them saved, getting them seeking the Lord. We got to do go ahead. Go ahead, brother.

Bert: 1:42:14

Do you read his text when he send it on the threads? Because he calls prison gold mines. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going into the gold mine of stateville. Yeah. I'm going into the gold mine of Sheridan or whatever, because that's how he sees it. You know, he knows that there's gold in there and that's, you know, the souls of the brothers, man. So praise God or those lost, you know, he knows, he knows how, like we were talking about the miracle of salvation. So. He knows how critical that is. He knows that angels rejoice in heaven when one person gets saved. So praise God. Amen. Amen.

Omar: 1:42:41

But, uh, I love what you shared too. He's meet me at the gate. He met you at the

Bert: 1:42:45

gate, literally at the prison gate. He was there on the other side. So he literally met me at the

Omar: 1:42:51

gate and that's one thing, man, that I'm gonna, I know he, he prayed for, and I'm gonna be praying for it. Uh, For more ministries that will be there to receive them once they get out, that will help them connect to organizations, people that will help them get the resume. I know brothers that have been out here mentioned they ain't got no credit when they come out. They have a lot of, uh, things, a lot of things are stacked against these men and women that are getting out. And they need some support. They need a support system. And going back to what you said, most importantly is the spiritual, you know, getting them plugged in spiritually, you know, or, you know, get them drawn closer to God, discipling them, baptizing them, and even helping them man, like in these other areas that they're going to

Bert: 1:43:33

need help in, right? It's critical, critical and exactly like you said, there's so many that just, they do not have the support system out here and, and, and then that directly leads to recidivism because if you don't have a support system, you're going to eventually do what you got to do to, you know, whatever it is, you know, um, it leads to crime, you know, it leads to stealing or selling drugs or whatever, you know, fill in the blank, you know, so yeah, having a support system. It's it's critical. Obviously, God is most concerned with the soul. But if we only concern ourselves with the soul, and we do not provide for the necessity, then you know, we're also missing the point. We're also missing, you know, the mark as well. Yeah,

Omar: 1:44:11

well, man, that scripture came to my mind where it says if you have bread, To give them, you know, when they come knocking, like give it to them, whatever the need is, it could be like a physical or not a spiritual, but on that natural need. Right. That, that we could meet as well. So,

Bert: 1:44:25

well, yeah, it speaks about that in many places. And especially in the new Testament, if we're not providing for the physical, now we have to be careful too, that, you know, some people don't use that just, you know, for that reason, sometimes people, you know, tweak the system and anything good, you know, seeing that in prison a lot where guys would, uh, But, uh, it would be a little bit, you know, using some of people's, you know, good intentions against them, you know, but, um, obviously we have to have discernment, you know, we have to know that, you know, God is good and, you know, this is for this purpose. And if it's something that's God honoring, God will progress it, you know, he will move it along and he'll bless it.

Omar: 1:45:02

Amen. Hey brother, real quick before we get ready to sign off. Oh, share that book. Where could people find it? Oh, yeah, and also, uh, the ministry, uh, the church, you know, they, they plug it as well.

Bert: 1:45:11

Amen. Amen. So, um, the, the, the book is called redeemed The subtitle is the rebirth of latin king. The author's name is bertholomew and that's a long name bertholomew Berrios And, um, the church, the hope in prison ministry, it's just a ministry of our church. So you could write to 3441 North Cicero. You could come visit. We have church every Sunday starts at 1045. And, right now the ministry is kind of relegated. So what we were doing before was we were going to the prisons, taking family members to go see their loved ones free of charge. And, you know, providing them with the card so they could buy food and different things on the visit. And, COVID kind of messed everything up. So we're still just getting back into the swing of things now that, because there's still some things going on in certain prisons. So we want to go back to Dixon and Stateville. So we're in the process of that, but that's still taking a little bit of time, so, okay. Amen.

Omar: 1:46:08

No, no, that, that, that, that's awesome, man. That, that you guys are doing that, man. Amen. Gotta, definitely gotta talk about that, man. See how we could start implementing that in different churches or even Sure, sure. Yeah.'cause that, that's, that's another way to show love to these families of, to these inmates, man. They're, they're not forgotten, man. Yep. But man, praise. Thank you for your time, brother. We're gonna get ready to sign off. I wanna thank my guest Bert Berrios, for being with us. Uh, Matthew four 16 reads. The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light and upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned alongside my brother Bert Berrios. My name is Omar Calvillo. We are Wrong To strong.