"From Infamy To Freedom" w/ David Ayala

This is an exclusive podcast interview with Chicago's very own David Ayala. David, along with his cousin Jimmy Soto, were recently exonerated after serving over 42 years in prison for a crime they didn't commit. They made history by becoming Illinois longest serving prison inmates to be then exonerated.
You will hear how I met David just last week by a chance encounter at a tattoo removal place. We started talking and were able to connect and set up this podcast interview a week later.
David grew up on the southwest side of Chicago in a neighborhood called "Little Village", "La Villita" or 26th street.  You will hear him share his life story. From the fun times running around as a little kid, skitching on the back of cars in the winter, jumping from one garage roof to another for fun in in the summer, to then becoming one of Chicago's most notorious figures.
You will get an in-depth personal view of this man, his thoughts, emotions, and experiences. You will hear what things helped him remain hopeful, persevere and never give up despite having a life sentence without the possibility of parole. This man's story is a great example of the human will to survive and how faith can help you thrive in the harshest of situations one can encounter in this life.

Please consider donating to David Ayala's GoFundMe page:
https://gofund.me/70eba86b

You can contact David Ayala via email
heydavid1214@gmail.com

Transcript

David Ayala: 0:15

Hello,

Omar: 0:15

everyone, and welcome to another episode of Wrong Too Strong Chicago. My name is Omar Calvillo. Uh, and then tonight, uh, tonight, you guys are in for a treat. With me, I have David Ayala. Uh, David just recently got exonerated after serving almost 42 years in prison. Uh, And I just like, well, uh, I like to to welcome my my brother to to the show.

David Ayala: 0:36

Welcome, brother. Yeah. Thank you for, uh, hosting me and giving me an opportunity to, uh, tell my story.

Omar: 0:42

Amen. Amen. You know what? Before we get into it, man, I just wanna share how how we we came in contact. You know? Because I I believe even that was like like a god thing. You know? So, uh, A quick story. I was at work, and, uh, my my coworker comes up to me. He's like, hey, Omar. Uh, how's that tattoo removal going? Right? And, uh, hadn't had a tattoo removal session since October. So, uh, the fact that he just brought it up out of nowhere, like, got me thinking. Like, you know maybe I should look into it. So I text the guy that works there and he's like, man, we're gonna have a tattoo removal the the following day, which was Tuesday. So I ended up going. I'm sitting there, and, uh, that day, their system wasn't working. So usually, they have you, like, uh, scan in through a a QR code with your phone. So it wasn't working, so they they they ended up walking around asking people's names. So I'm sitting there, and, uh, this brother was sitting. There was a table and then some chairs down this way. And when they asked him his name, he said David Ayala. And when he said that name, like, just the way that you said it, brother, I don't know. It was, like, with some authority. I'm like, man. Like, I know that name. You know? Like, I I grew up in 78. You know? I'm 45 years old. So growing up in the eighties and nineties, that was a a name that that I knew, that I had heard of, But I I I didn't know the face. You know? So to be honest, I don't know if you know this. I don't think I told you, but I googled you. Like, I grabbed my phone. I'm like, man. No way no way is is the same guy. So I Googled, you know, David Ayala, and sure enough, man, the article came up how in, uh, December I think November Or December. I think you finally got out in December. Right? Yeah. We

David Ayala: 2:10

were released December fourteenth 2023, me and my cousin, Jimmy So to. And, uh, we had served 42 years of wrongful imprisonment, and, uh, we went through the court process. And finally, They acknowledge the fact that we were innocent men. You know, we didn't we weren't released because of some technicality. They forgot to read us a right or anything like that. The state acknowledged, uh, the evidence we presented was clear. We were innocent men, and, uh, they released us. So Ever since then, it's been 1 blessing after another. You know, a lot of people ask me, you know, how am I feeling? Do I feel, uh, bitter Or anger towards, uh, you know, my years of false imprisonment, wrong imprisonment, and I'm not. I I feel blessed. I feel I feel the Lord is with me.

Omar: 2:55

Amen. Sound feeling. Hey, man. You know what? Actually, I wanna get to that part of the story, but we'll we'll start usually, we start at the beginning. So, man, brother, if you could tell us, man, because this podcast goes, like, throughout the country. So maybe if you we'll start up, like, where did you grow up at? If you could describe the neighborhood, maybe the name of the neighborhood, and maybe let let's start off with the early years. How was life like for you when you were young? You

David Ayala: 3:16

know? Okay. So I come from the Little Village area of Chicago. Uh, it's better known as 20 sixth Street. And, uh, You know, I was born and raised there. We were, uh, when the Mexican family came, which is now predominantly all Mexican families, My family is 1 of the first Mexican families that came to the area. When we came to the area, there was Ukrainian Eastern Europeans, Poles, Ukrainians, Germans. And, uh, It seemed to me, though, as more Mexican families are moving in, they were moving out. They were moving west. Like, oh, Mexicans are coming in. We better move out. So We came there at the early stages of Little Village becoming Little Village, um, Mexican neighborhood. And, uh, I went to grade school there, And my whole life was there. As a child, we played in the street. This is, uh, back in the early seventies when kids were playing on the streets. Climbing trees. Our our pastime was jumping roofs. Garage roofs. That's what that was our that was our fun times. We'll jump roofs, went to school there. Little village was, um, a great community, uh, great Mexican community. Lot of pride in that that area. Okay.

Omar: 4:24

Now how about, like, in in in in in the home? How are things at home? Was mom, dad in the picture? You have brothers, sisters that growing up?

David Ayala: 4:30

How does that look? So we had so I grew up on The eastern part of Little Village. And, uh, you know, we had a strong family, uh, unit. You know, we ate dinner together, Uh, as a family, and then my parents divorced when I was 9 years old. So that kinda, like, broke up our family unit. So when my parents divorced, You know, my siblings, my my 3 brothers, and my sister, my mother, I decided to go with my father. And so we moved To the other part of, uh, 20 sixth Street, the other which was complete like a whole different, uh, area for us. And so when I went there, I was new there To that area, but, you know, I got used to the area real quick and, you know, so that was my second, uh, part of the childhood. But I always had friends on the other side of 20 sixth Street. So 20 sixth Street is a good area. Uh, you know, uh, there's it's a gang area as well. So when you say you're on this side of 26 or that side of 26, it it tells if you're gang affiliated. Well, I grew up on the other side, and then I moved to this side. I didn't have any problems coming to the new neighborhood because I still was young. I made friends there right away. So it was, um, even though, you know, divorce is ugly thing on the family, Uh, we still had a strong family unit. Okay. Even

Omar: 5:43

though you guys were apart, you still, like, spend time with both, I guess. And

David Ayala: 5:46

Yeah. So, you know, uh, you know, The the the bad part was, you know, I see my siblings only. My father had visitation rights on weekends, so they would come over on weekends. But I stayed with my father through those years. You know, the the hard parts right after the divorce. But, uh, you know, coming to a new neighborhood, uh, It was it was it was a change. It was a different sort of change because I didn't know the streets or anything, but, you know, like I said, so this was a time in in, uh, in those days where, You know, we didn't have video games. We weren't on a computer. We weren't stuck on, uh, electronics. We were climbing trees. In the wintertime in Chicago, For people who don't know, in the wintertime when you're a young kid, we used to skeech. Right. Skeech skeeching is when you you you run a a band of car that's coming down the street, Probably like a 1 way street, and then you grab the bumper, and you just you you like, you're skiing. And we used to do that. Sometimes the car Guys would let us, and sometimes they try to stop, but that was our fun. That was our pastime. We did physical stuff. We weren't, uh, this is before computers and all that stuff. Okay. No. Yeah.

Omar: 6:47

Yeah. I remember too. Yes. The bad ones were were the ones that would take off on you when they knew

David Ayala: 6:52

you Yeah. They would take off. Okay. They're gonna get mad at you. Yeah. I

Omar: 6:55

remember 1 time we jumped on the back of a UPS truck. Just so and, man, the guy took off. He took all the stops. He didn't even stop, man. We're like, holy smokes. Right? Then we we rolled up, but, uh, Okay. So you're growing up then. You said you were about 9, 10, probably when you moved. Okay. So how does that life look for you or, like, going into your teenage years? You know? Like, uh, how does life begin to, uh, Uh, look

David Ayala: 7:15

out there. Okay. So we my family so my family comes from Mexico. You know, Guanajuato, Leon, Mexico. Okay. And so I would we would every summer, we would go visit, um, my family there. And when I was there, I I seen these little shoeshine boys in the plaza. They were shining shoes, And I was watching them, and I was I was studying them. So I came back to when we came back to Chicago, I got a shoeshine box. And I was a young kid. Like, I was 11 years old. I started shining shoes, and I will go to the bars. And, like, past 9 o'clock, the first time I went in the bar, they're like, hey. You're a kid. You can't be in here. I said, I'm Alfonso's son. My father was a well known guy in the area, very well respected. You know, he was a good man, kept his word. Everybody respected him, so they let me go in the bars. And so as a young kid, you know, I've seen a lot of things in those bars. You know? But, You know, I know how to mind my business, keep my mouth shut. I got the respect of all the men in that bar, in all those bars, because I was a respectable guy. I knew right away when I walked in the bar, I could look, I could scan the crowd. Oh, I'm going to that guy. That guy seems to have the money. He's a he's he's a big shot. I'm gonna go shine his shoes. I'm gonna get a big tip. So this was my childhood being exposed to that sort of things, Which, um, some people may frown upon, but for me, it was a learning experience, and it was, uh, part of part of my Part of my life at that time.

Omar: 8:38

Okay. But even at that age, like, a that hustle in you, you know, trying to make some money. Ain't no wrong wrong with that. You know, gotta start somewhere. But, uh, it's Okay. So you so you're there. You're observing that that, uh, what was going on in these bars back then? This was what? Like, in the seventies?

David Ayala: 8:51

Or Yeah. This was in the early seventies. So I don't know If the viewers or the listeners have heard, uh, that they've seen that movie, the Bronx, uh, Bronx Tale. Yeah. Okay. So the little boy witnessed, uh, Uh, a murder that happened on the street, and the cops came, and he kept his mouth shut. I had an incident similar to that. Uh, you know, some guy got into a barroom bra. He got stabbed up. The police came immediately. They grabbed me because I'm a kid. They fit they they thought they assumed that I was gonna give some information. You know, I kept my mouth shut and, uh, seemed like after that, everybody's noticed that they love me. I was welcome even more. So from there, shiny shoes. Next thing I knew, I was parking their cars. Parked the cars for them and then doing errands for them and different things like that that I was making my own way as a kid. You know, some people could look at it and say that's no way to, you know, for a child to be, and maybe and maybe not. But that was my story, and that was my life.

Omar: 9:44

Okay. Now what what, led you to that? Do you have somebody, let's say, maybe, like, another kid you age that was doing that, or this was all you? This was all, like, vision, this is what I'm gonna do.

David Ayala: 9:54

Like This was my vision. So my father my father was, uh, somebody who was not gonna spoil me. You know, if I wanted some extra money in my pocket, you go earn it because, you know, he came up, uh, you know, working the docks in Chicago. Uh, and so he was like, uh, you know, he had money. My father had money. But, you know, for me, he was not gonna spoil me, make me a brat. So if I wanted some extra money I always like dressing good. And so if I wanted some extra clothes, extra shoes, whatever, go. I'll make my money. And I realized how I can do that, and I just I was a observant young person. So I observe the scenario and think of things of how I could I cut make a few dollars in my pocket, and that's what I did. Okay. Got

Omar: 10:36

it. So you're there doing that. What eventually leads you, like, to to go into the streets eventually out there in in that, There

David Ayala: 10:42

we go. We're we're at we moved on 20 sixth Street. We moved on 20 sixth Street itself. So most people live on 20 fifth or 20 seventh. We lived on the Commercial Street right on 20 sixth Street. My father opened a clothing store. It was a popular clothing store, Alfonso's, uh, clothing store, And he sold khaki pants, and he was 1 of the first stores that had that style of pants available. In that area on little on 20 sixth Street in Little Village, No 1 had that that style of clothes, and it was a popular style of clothes. So we had people coming from both ends of 20 sixth Street to that store. We lived above the store. So For for if you lived on 20 sixth Street, the commercial area, the nearest park is 4 or 5 blocks away. And so, You know, I was running 20 sixth Street. I was running the streets of 20 sixth Street itself. That was my playground. Because to go 4 or 5 blocks in the wintertime, everybody knows in Chicago, It is cold. Yeah. The hot comes down. The wind's blowing. So I was running around 20 sixth Street, and then, uh, met some guys there, And then we were hanging out, and that's that's how I started my early life. Okay.

Omar: 11:47

And, like like, a what what age was that? Like,

David Ayala: 11:49

when then? So I would say 13, 14, 15 years old. Okay. That

Omar: 11:53

age right there. Alright. No. No. No. Back then, how were things, like, in the streets? I know, like, nowadays, obviously, there's all These guns and stuff, was it just, like, fist fighting? Like, how were things look, uh, looking out there, I guess, back then?

David Ayala: 12:05

Like, for someone who For somebody who gets drawn in or joins, uh, the gang life, it can happen, uh, different ways. Sometimes, like, um, you're a younger person, and you see older guys, they seem to have the money, fancy cars, the good girls. You wanna This is the role model that exposed to a lot of people. You know, we didn't have other role models. This was our role model, and so you kinda wanna emulate that person. And for other people I know some people in the neighborhood. For us, we were listening to disco music. We were dressing up Kinda like Saturday night fever. Okay. You know, like, those kind of clothes, polyester clothes. In those days, that's that was the style. We had some people in our neighborhood that were wearing blue jeans, Rock T shirts. So in a gang neighborhood, if you see a person wearing a concert T shirt or something, you would assume he's not a gang member. That's not the attire of a gang member. Well, these guys in our neighborhood, all they wanna do is smoke weed in front of their porch in the summertime. So People rival gangs will come, and if they didn't see anybody else hanging on the street, they start shooting at those guys. And those guys were like, hey, man. We're just out here We haven't we're sitting on our porch. We're being shot at. We're being shot. We're tired. Now we're gonna fight those guys. So they some guys get drawn into it Without even trying, and it just it so happens. You know? The only people that, uh, as far as the youth groups That chose not to be in a gang life were people that their I would say their parents had a a tight rein on them Where they would send them to sports or even the military. ROTC, police explorers, something different. So for me, my personal experience, I wasn't exposed to any of that. I was exposed to other things. So you you you know, you don't You experience what you know, and that's that was my experience, the other way. Gotcha.

Omar: 13:57

Alright. So, Eventually, we're we're gonna get into, like, what led you behind bars. So maybe I don't know if you could share what what happens, like, Right right before that that incident, I guess. Okay.

David Ayala: 14:08

So, uh, my family you know, some some people From the Chicago area, they're they're familiar with my family. My older brother, uh, I lost my older brother to, uh, gang violence, my brother Alfonso. He was killed when he was 17 years old, You know, due to gang life, uh, I was still living with my father. Eventually, my father was killed, you know, associated with, uh, You know, alleged drug activity, he was killed. And so when, uh, after he after he was, uh, killed, you know, he passed away, I was living on my own, And, you know, life for me was fast, a fast lane. You know, everything was fast. And, uh, I think that, you know, at that time that, like, Things that were important to me then are not important to me now. You know, I changed. I kinda matured. My priorities changed and everything. But back then, I was a flashy guy, You know? And I was a cocky guy. And, like, my philosophy, my thoughts were, you know, if you pay an attorney enough money, You could beat any case. So, like, um, I wasn't concerned of police harassment. Police harassed me a lot, you know, and they didn't like a young cocky guy. And so 1 thing I I I learned later on in life, you don't, you know, you don't, um, you don't flash yourself at them because then you make yourself a target. And you're a target for things you didn't even do. You know, you're being you're being harassed for things you didn't even do because, uh, they feel like They feel like we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna teach you a lesson. You know? Like, um, when I was involved in a lifestyle, 3 times, the police picked me up As a young guy, it took me to a rival neighborhood and left me there in the summertime, 2 blocks or 1 block away from a group of guys there, and they actually said, look. We got A guy down the down the road. And so, like, back then, I didn't know enough to take down their their the police car, uh, serial number or anything like that. So this was my experience with the law, and so I didn't respect the law. You know? Later on, I I I came to respect the law, you know, as an adult, You know, because, um, you you know, there's been a lot of wrongs in Chicago. Anybody knows these, you know, these police setting guys up and things like that. I think for myself, being a flashy guy, flashy jewelry and everything like that, I kinda made, uh, uh, myself a target. Yeah. You know? So which eventually led to my arrest. You know, it was no coincidence that, you know, they didn't like me. And, uh, we were charged for 2 murders and attempted murder For a case that happened, 2 innocent people got killed, and, uh, some guy got, uh, shot. And so, uh, you know, I went through the system and and was, uh, convicted. It was, um, sometimes the people are familiar with the judicial system. Uh, sometimes it just it comes down to the sort of jury you have. We had a, uh, like, a older white jury that seemed like they just wanted to just find us guilty. You know? Not of the actual crime of, uh, the state attorney was, you know, kept emphasizing the gang the gang thing. If you wanted gangs to run your your city, You know, uh, find these guys not guilty and stuff stuff like that. Not based on evidence. You know?

Omar: 17:07

Yeah. Okay. Gotcha.

David Ayala: 17:09

So for the people that had experience with the judicial system, uh, okay. I'll give an example. Uh, when I was in Cook County jail, you know, there was a lot of people, a lot of Mexican, you know, uh, Spanish speaking people. They didn't know any English, and, uh, they were lost. And so if if you couldn't afford a private attorney, you had to depend on a public defender. So the public defender you know, uh, there's only a certain number of public defenders, maybe 10 at the most, and they might have 1500 cases. And so anybody who knows if you ever been charged with a case or you're familiar with the the system, judicial system. You know, to get proper representation, you need a lawyer that's gonna really do the groundwork. Find witnesses. Sometimes it's hard to find a witness because you you have to scour the neighborhood to find a witness. If you're a public defender and you have 300 cases, there's no way possible that you could do a proper representation. So a lot of people will cop out because if you're facing 10 years, they say, we'll give you 1 year. And you know you're innocent, but you just wanna get this case behind you to continue with life, people were copping out. So the judicial system was eye opening experience for me and just living it and learning it and, uh, seeing, uh, it's really it's it's not a fair system here in the United States. It's really in in Chicago certainly. It's not.

Omar: 18:32

Right. And then then you experienced that first hand. And the bad thing is, like, you mentioned those guys that, Let's say they cop out to a year, then I might just wanna get out, but that begins, like, a a cycle for them too. Right? Because now they got a record, and that makes it easier for them to just come right back in,

David Ayala: 18:45

man. Yeah. Because the it's like, uh, the scale is is weighed against them because some guys lose their job. Some people, they try to get back in the workforce. They have that again, uh, you know, that that conviction against them. And so some people, you know, uh, the recidivism is higher because the opportunities are less. Now now with the reentry programs and so forth, it's it they they're understanding it's much easier cost wise to help a guy than to just incarcerate him. Incarceration costs much higher the cost would it be to give him an education. Right. My co defendant, Jimmy So to, uh, he's he's well known within the the the community because he, uh, was able to get a a a bachelor's degree through the Northwestern, uh, prison project in Stateville Prison, and, uh, he just recently graduated. Before we were released in December, he had a graduation, and he is pursuing a law degree. And, um, his interest and his passion is to not forget the people that were left behind. Uh, falsely imprisoned guys, wrongly imprisoned guys, and to be an advocate for them, a voice for them, because that's the difference between freedom and languishing years in prison. If you have uh, support base to to help you navigate. You know, for, uh, for me and myself, you know, my my prison story, you know, took a lot of twists and turns. You know, I did 17 years in isolation. I did, uh, for people not familiar, there was a the state of Illinois, uh, spent, like, 82000000 or something like that building a supermax prison in Southern Illinois. And this was during, um, across the country, it was during a a boom. Supermax building supermax in each individual state and, uh, housing people there for long periods of time. And so, you know, I suffered years of, uh, severe isolation. And, uh, you know, a human being is not made to be put in a a box like that. You know? Uh, for 14 and a half years, I didn't have a phone call, you know, in that prison. And so when they bring you the phone, they say, mister Ayala, you have a phone call. You know that means there's a death in your family because you're not gonna get a phone call any other kind of way. So to work on your case under those conditions, it's impossible. You cannot. And, you know, in that prison, what we were but we were suffering. What, we endured in that prison. No human being should ever have to endure that. So that was my experience. Uh, I didn't have the opportunities for education that my code defendant did, had I had I been able to be having those things, I would've I would've I would've thrived like he's thriving. You know? That was my other story. So,

Omar: 21:28

man, could could you give us a little bit more explanation, I guess, how did you were in a cell? Like, what? You never came out? Like So this How

David Ayala: 21:35

did that look? So the way they designed the prison was for the most severe confinement and isolation period. It was, uh, they call it a pod. Each pod consists of 5 cells downstairs and 5 cells upstairs. And, uh, I went years, literally years, talking to my neighbor and never seeing what he looked like. Never could I can't even imagine what this guy looked like because, uh, we weren't we were kept from each other, uh, so severely. And, um, you know, later on, the United Nations and Human Rights Commission, uh, said that their finding showed that that prison far exceeded, uh, the criteria for, uh, torture, human torture. And this is what, uh, I experienced for all those years. I I was sent to that prison before, I mean, the the week it opened and literally to the day it closed. And the day it closed, uh, we were all put on buses, and I finally seen my neighbor, and I finally looked at his face. I looked into his face, and I seen anguish and and, you know, the suffering that he went through, like, we all went through. I I I'm still experiencing the aftereffects of that because, um, you know, being housed since, you know, uh, deprived, uh, a hug. You know? Everyone could tell you no. Since I've been out, I feel like hugging everybody. Know, this is I'm just catching up on human contact that I was deprived for all those years. Man.

Omar: 22:59

Yeah. That that that's crazy. That that's a lot. Like, uh, the Bible says that it's not good for man to be alone. So that is like a like a punishment. So, Uh, man, how did you do it, like, to keep your sanity, I guess? Like, what what what stuff did they allow you to in in your cell, like, to maybe keep your mind, I guess, active, busy?

David Ayala: 23:16

So in that prison, they deprive you for basically both stinks. So you have to come to know yourself. You have to you have to find your strength or rise above your conditions or or succumb to them. So, like, I noticed you have a lot of guys that, uh, develop psychosis there. You know? Schizophrenia, you know, all kinda whatever you can think of. They they were suffering that because they weren't made to be held in those conditions for long periods of time, and and me myself as well. You know? I suffered, you know you know, like, I would have a visit. And, you know, visit all the visits behind glass, so you can't you can't even have contact. And, you know, my visits would say, like, you're you're quiet. Why are you why are you so reserved? It's because I had the ideas in my brain, but I couldn't I couldn't articulate them. I couldn't vocalize them because I wasn't used to, uh, talking to a a human person. You know? And we were deprived of that. And so, uh, like, the day that they released us all from that prison, the reason why they really they they closed that prison down because the governor said that it was it was, uh, it was torture of us, mental torture, physical torture of us, and and it was also, uh, it was not, uh, it was not cost efficient to keep his house there. So the director of the prison, the order of the prison closed, the officers union, the correctional officers union of that area fought. They they put a court injunction to keep that prison open because they they that that prison was built in a in the most rural county of Illinois. It was nothing in that community. So that community was an economic boom to that area. You know, people would would come down to visit and stay in the hotel there or go to the local coffee shop or whatever without the without the the the prisoners there and their families coming to visit them, there was nothing else in that in that community. So the officers unit, uh, they threatened a judge. They said, look. You're up for reelection in 6 months. If you rule that the prison should be closed, we'll vote you out of office. But he had no legal basis to to keep that prison open. Not when the governor and not when the the prison director is saying to close that prison. So now they fought it all the way to the end when the judge finally decided, look. I have no, uh, legal basis to keep this prison open. We're closing the prison. So we were put on buses. All of a sudden, we're all put on buses. And, you know, like, we suffered sensory deprivation. So this is the first time in 14 and a half years I'm smelling the smell of diesel fumes and seeing sights. And all my senses were suddenly activated because we were they were suppressed for all those years. Now we're seeing a sky without, uh, a chain of barbed wires, uh, uh, on on on on the roof there. And so we're seeing all these things, and so it was a good experience. A lot of people on the buses were getting, uh, motion sickness. They were vomiting because we weren't used to being on a bus and and that motion. And so, uh, they sent us to Pontiac, which was a less severe lockdown, and then they send me out of state. It was my I've I've been, uh, the state of Illinois department of corrections sent me to 3 different states. They did not want me in the state of Illinois. And so I was sent to New Mexico. I was sent to Nevada, and I was sent to Utah. And when my appeal finally came through, they brought me from Utah and sent me to Cook County Jail.

Omar: 26:44

Man. Yeah. So That that that's a lot. And that that was Tams. Right? The Supermax? Was that? What what what year did that close? Uh,

David Ayala: 26:50

what year was that? So TAMS closed it was open 2008, and it closed in, uh, December 2013. So in TAMS, you had guys who were developed the ability to cope with those severe conditions and the guys who didn't. And the guys who didn't were disruptive. They would yell on the tear. They would disturb our conversations. If if if 2 guys were having a conversation, uh, they want attention. They would they would disturb it. So there was a recipe for coping and a recipe for for for not having peace. The recipe for not having peace the recipe for for for success, coping with this, with maintaining your sanity for me and I and I know, uh, observed this of others was keeping the same sleep patterns. So, you know, exercising, reading, meditating, and praying because prayer was to salvation for, uh, many of us. You know, we would sit down. We we went to the yard. Our yard, it's a misnomer because it's just a concrete little box. There's no grass there. You know? I spent 17 years on concrete, and when they finally released me to a regular prison with grass, and I took my shoes off and and took my sock off. I was walking on grass. I picked up a daisy. I smelled the daisy, and people are looking at me like this guy must be crazy. But, you know, for a person who is deprived of feeling, uh, earth or grass, that's that's what's that's what you're gonna do. You're gonna you're gonna marvel at it. And so, like, um, for me, myself, to keep my sanity, you know, I would go outside, get fresh air. Even though it wasn't grass, it was a concrete box, and just, you know, uh, meditate, say some prayers. You know? Ask for ask for strength, uh, through God. Okay. That's that's what saved me. Man. So

Omar: 28:45

how does how does God come in into the picture in your life? Like, uh, did did you like, growing up, was God involved in your life, or Did it happen, like, in prison? Like, how how does God play a role, like, in your life, I guess, through throughout the years? So

David Ayala: 28:57

for most Mexican families, you know, we we were Catholic, and so we went through the rituals of, you know, confirmation, you know, communion, all that stuff. But, uh, you know, like, uh, the Catholic church, we attended Catholic church. At that time, I wasn't getting anything out of it. Nothing's stimulating. I couldn't remember 1, uh, simple sermon. But because that was our culture and that was our customs, that's what we went to. And, um, so in prison, you know, like, a chaplain will come see you. If you request a chaplain, they'll come. But, uh, for me, like, there was a lot of guys in prison that I met throughout the years that professed to be Christian, and it would actually try to prophesize to you or preach to you. And, yeah, I would observe that person's behavior. If you come to me and you're telling me that I'm doing the wrong things that or listen to scripture in the daytime, but at nighttime, you're asking me, hey. Who has weed here? Or who has a a a smut magazine, a porn magazine? I I I consider you a hypocrite. So I I experienced that with a lot of individuals. And then you had the the opposite, uh, side of the spectrum where you had guys who really not only talk the talk, they walk the walk. You know, you they they would they would watch the tongue because, you know, uh, and the Bible says that too. You know? Watch what you say. You know? Yeah. And so we could tell who's sincere and who wasn't sincere. But, um, as far as my my spiritual awakening, it was from myself. It wasn't from a preacher coming to talk to me. It wasn't even from the Bible. You know, when I when I when I read the Bible, uh, I read the book of Revelations. And at that time, I said, well, these guys must have been high in some hallucinogenic. This this a 7 horn thing, I didn't understand it. Yeah. You know, I I said, like, wow. These guys moved behind peyote or something when they wrote this. And the old testament, it seemed like violent. And then later on when when when I had a different different eyes, like like like Paul and Saul. You know? Yeah. Your eyes, you open up and and and you wanna learn. And so your other recourse is, you know, you turn to a higher power. Whatever your higher power is. You know? And and that's your salvation there.

Omar: 31:06

So so do you experience that? Where you at when

David Ayala: 31:09

you experienced that? In TAMS. Okay. TAMS Supermax. Alright. Before temps Supermax, you know, like, for me, uh, in the prisons, you know, I was the prisons were wide open at that time. What I mean by wide open, like, uh, you weren't locked in the cell. You weren't confined in the regular prison cell. The doors were open. You could run around. You run around the cell house. Some people are getting to mischief in a in a prison or whatever you were doing, you didn't have the time. You weren't forced upon you a time where you had to reflect. You know, for people who did go to church and stuff, it's because they really they made that strong choice. If your if your if your day is occupied with other activities and and that prison system was that way, then that's what you would do. Uh, for me, I was forced upon reflection, self reflection and stuff through the lockdown years. Right.

Omar: 31:59

Man. Okay. So you're there, and then you went to Pontiac. You you're going through all these states. In the states, were you, like, uh, did they still have you by yourself, or were you able to be, like, with regular

David Ayala: 32:11

population? Or Okay. So so when they send you out of state, it it's a it's a it's like a punishment. You're sent under the stigma of the worst of the worst. So they say, uh, the state of Illinois is declaring you to be incorrigible. So we don't want you in our state system. We're gonna send you to the other state system. So when I was in Pontiac at, like, 2 30 in the morning, a whole grip of police officers, you know, correction officers came to my cell. They said, look. Uh, you you got 1 minute, get dressed, you're leaving here. And I'm like, where am I going? They're like, well, we can't tell you this for security reasons, but, uh, you're gonna get on the airplane. And, uh, so I was like, okay. Okay. So I've heard of this before. You know, they send you out of state. Yeah. Am I going, like, somewhere hot, Texas, I've been going somewhere cold like Alaska. They said we can't tell you anything. Somewhere in the middle. So now my mind is racing, you know, just speeding, where am I going? You know, I'm gonna be away from my family. I can't bring any of my property with me. Uh, and now it's really gonna be difficult for me to work on my case. So this day, you you know, I was totally discombobulated. And, uh, the federal marshals come, and they give you some clothes, orange hoodie, they put a waist shack around you. Uh, they said, look. We're we're traveling incognito. So that means that, uh, the other passengers don't know you're a prisoner, and so you keep your hands in your pocket, put the long sleeve over your handcuffs. Uh, but anybody could see that there's 2 marshals on either side of me. But so anyway so while I am, uh, having all these thoughts race through my mind, uh, they escorted me to the transport car, uh, right right there within the prison, and the 2 officers went to go talk. And and I was sitting in the back of the back of the the the transport, uh, vehicle, and I was just thinking, wow. Where where am I going? And there was a there was a lady there, and she looked very peaceful. And and I I just happened to look at her, and it seemed like her image just came to me. Like, came, like like, uh, it's hard to describe where she just kinda, like, came forward to me without even walking. It's like, and she told me, god is with you. And I just felt, uh, very, very emotionally touched. Mhmm. I felt a a sense of peace. Now I'm not even worried where I'm going. I feel like, uh, God is with me. God has my back. So I close my eyes. I I put my head down to to to pray, to thank. Thank God, and I looked up, and, uh, she was gone. She just disappeared. So when the transport officers came, I said, listen, uh, I like to thank that lady. You know, she gave me some some some comforting words. He said, they told me, what lady? I said, the the lady who was just here, they're like, there's no lady here, bro. There's there's no female on the staff here. They don't come to to next shift. I said, wait. There was a lady who was just here. I I wanna thank her. They they looked at me like I was crazy. Right then and there, I know it was divine intervention. I know it was It was angel almost there. Angel. It was an angel.

Omar: 35:06

Yeah. Yeah. And just them words give you that peace, uh, to just I

David Ayala: 35:09

had the peace. And then I was comforted. Wherever whatever is gonna happen, I I I know I'm not doing this alone. I know that God has my back.

Omar: 35:17

Man, and that help you on on your journey, I guess, to

David Ayala: 35:19

comforted. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Man. So these were experiences that, uh, I experienced firsthand. And so this was, um, at the time, I didn't realize it, but these were, like, building blocks of, uh, my my belief and my faith in God. Yeah. You

Omar: 35:35

know what? I know you mentioned the good. I know, uh, before we were talking on the phone, and you mentioned some of the darkness that you witnessed and, uh, like, spiritually, I guess. I know if there's a story maybe you wanna share about Yeah.

David Ayala: 35:45

You know, like So I was in a prison. Uh, it's a old prison, uh, at Menard Correctional Center. This prison was built, like, 2 years after the the the civil war ended, 18 65. no, way. Is that old? It's that old. It's a old decrepit prison. People have died in that prison. I think spirits of fallen people were in that prison. And, uh, so 1 night, uh, I was laying down I was laying back in bed. I wasn't sleeping and, uh, felt a force lift me, like, jackknife me up. Like, lift lift me up in, uh, in my in position. And I felt so I tell people that I've shared a story with, it's kinda like that movie, uh, predator where, uh, the the demon was able to have, like, heat waves, like, clear heat waves coming at me, and I felt this heat wave. And I smelled a strong smell of sulfur in the cells, it's terrible smell. And so when this when I was confronted with this heat, you know, uh, my first reaction was, like, you know, like, challenge this thing. I was swearing at f you. I ain't scared of you. Come on. And it shook me. Uh, and I said, f you. I'm not scared, and it shook me more than it got hotter. And then I said I realized to myself, I can't beat this force. Whatever this thing is, I've never experienced this before. Um, I'm experiencing something strange here, and I can't beat it on my own. And something in my memory bank. And I've never been somebody who could easily, uh, recite scripture. Something in my mind and the recesses of my mind told me to say the words. In the name of Jesus Christ, I cast away from you, demon. And I said those words, the smell vacuumed out, the the smell, the heat, uh, vanished, and it just dropped me back in bed. I was like, I was stunned. I was like, wow. And I I hesitated to tell anybody that story because when most people, you know, imprisoned, you start losing your mind, you know, some kind of way. That sounds like an incredible story. But 1 thing I learned sharing that testimony with other believers later, they they have also have everybody has, uh, uh, some sort of, uh, story like that in their life, a situation that similar situation. Maybe not that extreme, but something similar. Yeah. I mean,

Omar: 37:51

it's it's very real. You know? Like, Jesus, when when he came, he had his encounter with demons. You know? So it's it's it's it's biblical. And, like, in the book of Ephesians, it says to put on the full armor of God. So, you know, like, when you go to battle, we're in a spiritual battle, especially as as followers of Christ, man. So it's real. I've had my own encounters, you know, spiritually, so Definitely. It's not something that you just

David Ayala: 38:12

dismiss, man. And So for a person like me so for a person like me, you know, like, uh, to to to really, uh, you know, exhibit my beliefs, it was a struggle because, you know, forgiving people for wrongs against me or my family, it didn't it didn't come easy to me. I still struggle with things like that, but but I know that the power of forgiveness is much stronger than the power of anger. That's that's no doubt in my mind. These things are are are are experiences that I've had to solidify my own personal belief. And so, like, um, I've I feel that my release after 42 years is is for a purpose. It's not random. It's not just coincidental. There there's a there's a calling that I feel that that I'm experiencing in my life now. Amen. No.

Omar: 39:00

No. You well, let's let let me ask you. Like, I know you mentioned earlier about, uh, they didn't give you time to work on your case, like, throughout, uh, your time in TAMS. Were you working on your case? Did you have somebody on the outside working on your case? Like, how how did that look throughout the years, I guess?

David Ayala: 39:13

So, like, so, like, uh, I said, look. So we're in Southern Illinois. We were in the furthest most part of the state. We were close to Paducah, Kentucky. So the people that had TVs were getting Kentucky, uh, TV station, not even Illinois stations. We're in the most rural area, and we didn't have access to legal materials. So if you didn't know the law, if you wanted a case law, you had to know the case law. If if you've never had experience studying the law, you'd you had no way of of putting it together. So finally, I was able to assemble a legal team, uh, to get my to get my appeal start going. And that attorney, he did what he could, but, ultimately, it was later to my attorney, Jennifer Bongene and her law group that really, uh, won my freedom. They did investigative work. You know, I can't thank them enough. And so through this law group, this law group was passionate. Um, it wasn't a case where just a regular case. They knew the injustice of this case, and we were able to present that to the courts where the assistant state attorney actually told the judge, your honor, you know, if I felt these men were guilty, even a little bit, we will fight this to the end. These are innocent men. We we have now been exposed to evidence that we never knew about before. So we we are not, uh, opposing their petition. And the judge said, you know, he had no other choice. He was like, if the state attorney is acknowledging the fact that these are innocent men, we're gonna grant we're gonna vacate their guilty conviction. And so, you know, I I would say this. When I was in Cook County Jail, they isolated me again. They had me again in isolation after being free in other state. Uh, initially, when every time they send me out of state, they send me to 3 states, they would lock me down. They sent me to Nevada. They had me in, uh, administrative segregation, which was a, uh, just a lockdown, uh, situation for 2 years. And I and I didn't have any, uh, disciplinary reports. No. No. I didn't, uh, violate any of the rules. But because when they stigmatize it, how they stigmatize me, you know, they they assumed the worst of you, and they say you're the worst of the worst. So Tams prison, when it was initially built, it was under the moniker, uh, it's for the worst of the worst. We need a prison for the worst of the worst. And then that prison was only at max capacity halfway filled. So went from needing a prison from the worst of the worst to needing, quote, unquote, the worst of the worst for the prisoners. Uh-huh. So they were sending anybody there. People that they didn't really fit the criteria of what that prison should have been, uh, for. Uh, they were just filling the beds there because they have to justify, uh, the operation of that prison, they're sending people there. But, um, when I was in Cook County Jail, you know, uh, we we were we were told that, like, uh, the state would be vacating, uh, uh, this conviction, and, you know, we had, like, 5 continuances. So continuances when you have a court, uh, date and you go and they have a status hearing where everybody both sides of the the defense and the prosecutor tell judge were here doing this is what's going on with this. And after after the fourth 1, you know, like, my faith was wavering. It was being tested, severely tested. You know? And so I said a prayer at night. I said, lord, if you know, I feel like you abandoned me. You know? And, uh, this is how I'm feeling in my heart. And if you haven't abandoned me, send me a sign. I need a sign. I'm searching. Uh, I'm I'm grasping for a sign. Well, the next day, the officer came to my cell and gave me a Christmas gift bag. It was from Willow Creek Community Church, and it was a little and they had in this gift bag, uh, a little bag of cookies, little bag of chips, but, uh, which was nice if you don't have those things in in the in the Cook County Jail because the prices of commissary is so high. Anybody could tell you that. But what really what really touched me was the little spiritual book. They gave me a spiritual book. And I knew that that gift bag was the sign that I was asking for. And so my anxiety just left. Once again, I was comforted, and I know my prayer was answered. And and we went to court a couple days later, and that's when every and that's when they, uh, they dropped the charges.

Omar: 43:37

Uh, so so this happened at Cook Cook Cook County. Right? When the guy give you the bag? Yeah. Okay, man. So could could you take us through that moment, man? You're in the courtroom. Now now before we get there, let let me ask you this. Your your initial sentence what was your initial sentence? You had no chance of getting

David Ayala: 43:50

out? I had natural life without parole, which which like, uh, that means you're gonna spend the rest of life in prison. You're gonna languish. You're gonna die in prison. If you cannot, uh, fight to overturn that sentence, that's that's that's your destiny. That's that's your faith for the rest of your life. So they're just telling you you're gonna die here in prison. And, you know, I was locked up 42 years. Uh, my cousin Jimmy Soto and I, uh, we made history in Illinois. We are the longest serving, uh, prisoners that that were exonerated. 42 years. No 1 has served that much time as we as we have and and being exonerated. So, I mean, it's not the sort of history that I'm proud of or that I like, but that was imposed on me. You know? Um, from the very beginning of, uh, from the beginning of my indictment where the state attorney, uh, was beating guys up, coercing them to make statements, everything throughout this whole, uh, ordeal was unfair. If I had a fair, honest prosecution, then, you know, we would have been found innocent way back then, but it the the the cards were stacked against us through, uh, through wrong prosecutors, police officers, and and everything from the very beginning. But so, um, the judge, when he was when he was making announcement, he made, like, a long speech, and I was standing, I was wait I was, like, like, shaking, like, you know, waving back and forth, like, just like, uh, I was staggered because we didn't know how this thing would would would turn out. Even though the state attorney said he was gonna drop the charge to vacate the the conviction, my experience with the legal system was never, uh, favorable. Never really good. So I was expecting the worst. And then, uh, he, you know, he he, um, he granted our petition, and we were freed. And, uh, so now I'm dealing with a whole new world out here, you know, with all the technology and everything. And a couple days later, my brother took me to a supermarket, and we're in a supermarket. And so this is the first time I encountered scanning scanning items without, you know, having a cashier there. And I was like, you know, because I've never seen that in a movie, a TV show. I've this is I've never knew such a thing existed. This is showing me something new. And so we're having a conversation, my brother and I, and he's scanning the items, put them in the bag, put his debit card in there. We're walking out the store, and the security guy car uh, guy came and stopped us. He's like, I have to check the bag. And I pull out item and looked at the item, scanned the item, and my brother told him, hey. Listen. Uh, I have a receipt for that item. It's here on the receipt. And the store security guy looked at the receipt and matched it up against the item, and he said, you're good. He turned around and walked away. You know, he didn't apologize. He didn't even say have a good night. So, like, something triggered in my mind. Yeah. You know? This was after, uh, coming out of being falsely accused for 42 years and about 2 days, and now you're accusing us of stealing. That's what it was. He accused of stealing. And so my brother's like, hey. Uh, he seemed that, like, I wanted something in my mind triggered, and I wanted to like, a zone. I was looking at the floor. I was just shaking my head. You know? I was I was upset. I was frustrated. And he's like, hey. This happens all the time. I said, well, that may be the case. But if you if you've been locked up for 42 years for something you did not do and you're out for 2 days and now somebody's telling you, you know, I have to check your bag. You know, that does something to you. You know? Uh, it it makes you feel like here here we go all over again. You know? It just triggers something really, uh, something really deep within me. Yeah. Does

Omar: 47:27

And it makes sense, man, because you that's been, like, your history, your life has been with that. And Anything. Like, a lot of things could trigger, like like, subconsciously, you you don't even know. The person that's with you don't even know, but you already feel a certain way towards anybody, like, with a badge or

David Ayala: 47:41

authority. Right? Exactly. So I would say for my for my personal journey within the the decades I was in prison, you know, like, uh, through through the years of different experiences, the lockdown experience where you where you come into yourself, you you reflect. Like, somewhere along the line, your priorities change. You know? Your perspective changes. You know? Like, guys that I once were fought before in a former life became some of my best friends. The guys are great guys. You know, I I I got to know him. I consider them some of my great friends. Once upon a time, we would've we would've been attacking each other out there in the street. How how did that

Omar: 48:17

change, uh, happen? How how quickly or how slow was that, uh,

David Ayala: 48:21

transition for you? Okay. I would say if you could equate it to, let's say, people that are racial. If you're part of 1 race and someone's part of another race, you were you were in doctrine to think, well, that race right there is no good. This is how they live. There are dirty people. Whatever they think. Yeah. And then, uh, beyond your control, let's say you're in prison and you're in the same, uh, small area with them, and you interact with them, and you listen to them, and you hear their sense of humor, and you hear what they their interests are, and they're just like yours. And so you say, you know what? You're not a strange, uh, uh, being. You're just like me. We're at this and and for and for for us, the guys who are fighting their own race, you say, you're my brother. You're you're my raza. You're you're you're also my brother. It's just unfortunate that at a early age, you know, people took these these turns in life where, you know, where we just fight each other, maybe it's a warrior our warrior blood in us or something. But, uh, for me, being locked down, you you're locked down. We don't have much of anything. In Tams, we didn't have much of anything. And so whatever little we had, you know, uh, we will share. Hey, man. I got a little bit of coffee here, bro. And then you see these people offer this kindness to you, and you say, you know what? Bro, you're a you're a good dude, man. I don't know why we waste our life fighting each other Yeah. You know, and and vice versa. We we help we're like in the same boat. Yeah. We're in the same boat. And, you know, so that's so speaking about the the the boat analogy, uh, when I was in Cook County Jail and I was going through the stress of the uncertainty of whether or not I would be granting my friend. This is my chance. This is the appellate court ruled give us evidentiary hearing. This is it. This is my my Your last is your last chance. Right? Yeah. So I had read a book, the life of pie. And this book for people familiar with it, it's a story of this guy that he who was on a boat, and the boat went down, he was on a life raft. And the book is kinda silly because he's on a boat with a tiger. But so for me, my life, I felt like when I was going through that process, I was on a life raft. Uh, the life raft was how I looked at my attorneys. That's my life, my lifeline. And I was on the ocean, and the ocean was my life. And some days, the ocean was peaceful and tranquil. That was my day. Some days, my were peaceful. And other days, which most of the days were turbulent. The seas were choppy. The boat was being almost capsized up and down. That was my my process going through the continuances and the court process. And I was on that life boat without a oar and without control of the rudder. So I didn't see any land in sight when I was on that boat. And, you know, like so the land would have been my freedom. And so I was at the mercy of nature. You know? And so, like, all these things were a test of my strength and my test of my faith. The the officers in the Cook County Jail gave me a hard time because the way they had me, uh, isolated. I was isolated from the population. Right. I couldn't see anybody. Literally, when if if I was going in there, well, they would stop all the movement. And they you know, this is how they categorize me. And so, uh, you know, I was I was I was complaining, asserting my rights to to go to the yard, and they find you know, these were during the summer, you know, July, August, where it was 80 degree temperature, and I wanted to go outside. I wanted fresh air because anybody who was in Cook County Jail, they know the air is stale. And, you know, I needed I needed fresh air, uh, oxygen to my brain. And this is when I was being tested. My faith was being tested, and they finally let me go to the yard. I I sat down on a concrete basketball court, and, you know, the maintenance crew hadn't, mowed the lawn. So the the blades of grass were were were they were high. And, you know, like, I sat down, and I right away, I I noticed all the sounds of nature. I heard birds singing. I was like, thank you, god. You're letting the birds sing a beautiful, uh, melody to me. And I looked at the grass, and the grass was waving. And I felt like god is saying, look here. Nature's welcoming you here. I wave at the grass, and the bushes will will swing. And I thought, uh, bushes are waving hello to me. And I waved back at them, and I just bowed my head in prayer and thank God for giving me these blessings. The officer looked at me like, is this guy bugging up? Is he, like, is he having some kind of episode? I just told the officer, hey. Look, man. This is this is the Lord giving me a a a nice welcome out here. And that's how I I folk anytime that I felt stressed through the ordeal I was going through, uh, you know, I found peace, uh, they turned into God.

Omar: 52:57

Amen. Amen. No. That's good. Now I know you mentioned, you know, coming out and having that bad experience, you know, when you go into the store with the security guard. Now what what's been some of the the good things, maybe some highlights from from coming out? Like, what's maybe 1 of your favorite things or memorable so far? I mean, I know it's only been a short time. But

David Ayala: 53:14

so, like, for me so, like, most people say, like, what foods have you been eating or or or something like that. Those weren't the pleasures that that the what what really has touched me, they showed me that I'm blessed, was a good family unit. You know, people who sincerely care for me, who hug me, my friends. I have friends, uh, male friend. I tell them I love you. Hey. I love you, brother. And I mean that. You know what I mean? So these are these are friendships. They are lifelong friendships. Nothing could change that for me. You know? And, you know, we these guys were with me through the furnace. You know? They were doing me through the fire. And so I've I've realized not everybody has that. Right. So, you know, so even though we suffered, you know, years of wrongful imprisonment, you know, it showed me, you know, you find out this is a country song. You find out who your friends are, and and that's how I find out who my who my true brothers are, who my true friends are. You know? All to all to, uh, the spectrum of, uh, different races, different age groups. You know? And so the blessings for me for now are simple things. Simple things. You know? Uh, uh, hugging a tree. I hug 3 trees right away. I wanna hug a tree. You know? I I look at, uh, even dead leaves and just marvel at their at their beauty of of of a leaf. You know? So, like, um, you know, I'm not stuck on eating steak and lobster or having wine or something like that. I would rather just right now for me, my pleasures are just simple pleasures. You know? 1 of the great things is, you know, being able to pull up a movie when you watch Netflix or something. Sometimes it just wasn't there before. Right. I was like, wow. This is great. I could watch the movie I want on command. Uh, so those things, that's it's very enjoyable for me. You ain't

Omar: 54:54

gotta go get the the VCR. You know?

David Ayala: 54:56

The old beta max. You don't have to get the big clunky

Omar: 54:59

A lot of people probably never heard of that, man. But, uh, man, it's okay. So you're out. You're making uh, you mentioned these friends. Uh, I imagine a lot of them also did some time with you. That's what you're talking about,

David Ayala: 55:17

students from the outside who who became his friends, uh, I didn't have that exposure. So most of the guys I knew were either from my neighborhood from back in the day or people I did time with. And so, uh, I've been out. They've been they've been out if they served any prison time for years and they already established themselves. So a frustrating thing for me, you know, at my age, I'm 60. I got locked up when I was 18. At this age, people are getting ready to retire. And now I am, uh, establishing my life. You know? Learning things, you know, uh, acquiring my own home, mortgage payments, insurance payments, stuff like this, and just catching up on, uh, it's like, for me, it's frustrating because I wanna I wanna super speed. I wanna fast forward. Everybody said, look. It took us 30 years to get this home. It took us this amount of time to get this car. You wanted to do this. Well, at my age, I don't have I don't know how many years. I'm a healthy person. I don't have health issues, but still, the reality is I'm at this age. The state took these years away from me. And now I I'm trying to get my footing to catch up, to be a a normal person. When you come out of prison, you don't even have a credit score. Right. And so, you know, like, how do you get a credit score? You know, so all these things are difficulties and obstacles that, you know, hinders us, but, you know, I'm I'm learning, and I'm navigating through through that stuff. Gotcha. Okay.

Omar: 56:42

So what what what are, like, maybe, like, some short term goals? You know? Like, some things that okay. You got this freedom. What do you see yourself doing? Like like, let's say in the next 6 months, 1 year, like, short term, I guess. Like

David Ayala: 56:53

So okay. So so I found, uh, peace at a church that that my sister introduced me to, I feel, uh, uplifted. That's how I spend my Sunday. And so, you know, I go to church in on that day right there. For my short term my short term goals, my my my goal is to get a home for me and, uh, my daughter and my son, hopefully, 1 day, we could connect. He and I haven't had great contact like him, my daughter and I, and get a home. You know, like, I always said my dream was to have a a simple home with a little patch of grass up front. I'll be the old guy chasing the kids off my grass, keeping keeping my lawn up. You know? Something simple. You know? Get a a a job. You know, there's there's job offerings to me, uh, you know, and I'm weighing my options. I wanna make a difference in somebody's life. I wanna be able to catch some young guy who that could be the difference between him taking 1 path in life, which will be, uh, prison, gangs, uh, drugs, or whatever, violence, or, uh, having a better life. Because 1 thing I noticed like, when I was in high school and all the brainiacs, I said, those guys are squares. Look at them. They're just studying books. I thought we were the cool guys. But if you think about it, these are the guys that got houses before we had house. They had nice cars. So who's the stupid or square guy? It's not them. It was us thinking that they were lame. We were actually lame for for taking different paths in life. Shortcuts. There are no shortcuts like that in life. You know? None at all. You

Omar: 58:26

know? Gotcha. So for any, like like, young guys that that are out there that are gonna be hearing this, what what was, like do you have a message

David Ayala: 58:33

for them, man? Like I will say this. For anybody that's involved in the gang life, I will tell you this. The the if you're in a gang, and you think those other guys are your rivals, and you think that you're gonna pick up, let's say, an assault rifle and shoot them. You could shoot them. You could shoot 5, 6, 7 of them. You'll never exterminate them, and they will never exterminate your group. So it's frivolous. It's fruitless. It's a waste of time. And not only are you that there's victims. Your mother is the victim because when you go to jail, she suffers. Your children, if you have them, your your siblings are gonna suffer. Your family's gonna suffer. You're they're gonna you're gonna incur legal bills, and the people that you harm are are gonna be affected. So it's not something good or positive. Nothing good comes from that. There's victims. You you yourself are a victim. You might have shot that guy, but you're a victim. You're a victim of the system. You're gonna be categorized as a convicted felon, and your your family is gonna have to, uh, pay these legal fees, and they're gonna be high. Trust me on that. And that person that you harm, his family is suffering. So what is what is the point of doing something so senseless when you could do something much positive? You know, when I met you, Omar, we went to that the center, I was getting a tattoo removal too, and I noticed a group of young kids, teenage kids sitting at the table. And I asked the lady, what are they doing here? What is this all about? This looks interesting to me. This looks like something. And I looked at those young kids. They were Hispanic kids, and I felt so so proud of them that they instead of being on the street, getting high, running the streets, getting into a bunch of, uh, mischief, they were there. They were at the table on the day where they could have been running the streets, and I said to myself, they need more of this. With these sort of programs, they could take the kids off the street, and you could make a difference. Uh, young people at, uh, developmental, uh, stages in their life are impressionable. Yeah. And so what they are exposed to makes the impressions on them. And if the only role models is drug dealers or something, um, so that's gonna be the people they wanna they wanna emulate. But if you if you give them something better than that so I said to myself now, you know, I've been released. People people know me. I have a certain, uh, measure of respect from these people. And so and why am I being respected? Because in prison, I always carry myself, keep my word. I didn't get involved in controversies. I help people out when people came to prison from my neighborhood or anybody I could help out, I will help them out. People remember this. This is why when I came out, these people were glad to be in my life because they know when the chips are down and we were in prison, I will I will be I will help them however I can. You know? If if I got 2 soups, you need 1, I'll give you a soup. And and they remember these things, and now it's like paying forward. For me, paying it forward would be to help somebody who could choose the wrong path of life. And if I can help them not do that, then then I know that I'm I'm serving a a good purpose Amen. Which is what I I believe.

Omar: 1:01:38

No. No. That's good. That's good. You know what? You you you mentioned something about food. Like, my buddy JC, that's the guy who started the the Wrong To Strong. And, uh, when we reconnected, I lost contact with him like, almost 17 years, let's say, somewhere around there. And when we reconnected, he said that he remembers when he was down and he didn't have, let's say, no money, no commissary, and I gave him Some food. And it's like the small token of appreciation. They said that he remembers. Like, I remember how you looked out for me. And then Sometimes we think it's the big things, but, man, maybe it's the the little thing and in the midst of a of a hard situation, you know, that people remember.

David Ayala: 1:02:12

Like, when that church gave me that give back, bro, that was my sign. I know that was my sign. And, uh, you know, people say, well, it was a little bag of cookies and a little bag of chips. No. It was more than that. It was the sign that I was seeking. And so these things these things solidify, my faith and my belief, they're building blocks because, um, like I said before, uh, I see in hypocrisy, you know, to guys to profess to be a Christian and their and their actions show otherwise. But then I see a sincerity. When I met you, I don't know if I didn't tell you. When I looked in your eyes, I seen a sincerity, and I felt proud of you. And I'm still proud of you because you're a young, uh, Latino brother. You're my brother, and you're doing something, sending a message out there, a message that needs to be heard. And you're giving us a platform to tell our story in the hopes that, uh, someone will hear it and think about it. Just think about it. Because like I said, if you if you think you're gonna be a gangbanger and you you're doing something, you'll never you'll never in your life eliminate the other group, and they'll never eliminate your group. So you're just wasting your time. This is a waste of time. You know? And you could be doing something positive. You could get to know those guys. And, no, those those guys ain't bad. So why aren't we wasting our time fighting each other? Right. It's it's senseless. It's it's senseless.

Omar: 1:03:25

Definitely, man. No, man. I'm I'm glad I'm glad we made that connection. Like, I mean, I'm glad you're here sharing your story. And, my prayer is that it'll reach somebody, man, somebody maybe that's heard of you, Been following you, you know, and that man, that you give them that hope, you know, that that they could turn it around. Another 1 of my prayers is that these podcasts Will make their way into the prison somehow. I know guys got tablets and access to media where if you had, like, a a a word Uh, something that you will say to the guys behind bars, like, you you were there and basically life with no chance of parole. Like, what what kept you, I guess, positive? What kept you, like, going? Not throwing the towel. I'm sure you've seen guys that Took that other option, threw in the towel, and just gave up on life for an you know? So what what what message would you have for them based on your, uh, experience?

David Ayala: 1:04:12

Well, I would say to persevere, to never give up. Even in the face of adversity and the face of, uh, monumental challenges, you know, like so my cousin, Jimmy, you know, he from day 1 always, uh, studied the law. You know? Instead of spending his money at commissary, he bought, uh, law books. And so, you know, he was determined. He was resilient. You know? He persevered. You know? He never gave up. Uh, and so, like, for anybody, let let my story be an example. It took, you know, 42 years, but so some people resign themselves to they become complacent. They they they just give up. They say, this is it. This is my destiny. I'm cool with it. Uh, I know my routine. 3 3 meals a day. I know this or I know that in prison. This is what they're become institutionalized. But what I would say to those guys, you know, you have to put the effort in to get a good result. You can't just, uh, piggyback off someone else's, uh, work, you know, you could, in some instances, you know, uh, once upon a time, when there were sentencing juveniles to life without parole, you know, the court ruled that was unconstitutional. Uh, that didn't mean that you were, uh, released. That means you were resentenced. And so the the the lesson there is your behavior is gonna determine whether you're gonna get out or whether you're gonna, uh, continued being in prison. And prison is not fun. You know? When I first came to prison, I thought prison was fun because it was wide open. Was a lot of things going on back in those days. Everybody knows this. You know? But so now it's more strict. It's more severe. But I think that, uh, the state of Illinois would, uh, allowing, uh, educational opportunities, that changes people. This lowers the recidivism rate. People won't come back because they have an alternative, another another way to go. But for the guys that are are left behind now with life sentences like I did look at me. I had 2 natural life sentences and 35 years. So when the first judge, uh, sentences me, how is it possible to have 2 natural life? I'm gonna die, come back to life, die again, and then serve 35 years. So don't give up. Keep the faith. Turn turn to god, and he'll be he'll he will give you answers. If if you if you're guilty or if you're innocent, uh, change change change your life, change your perspective, change your beliefs for the better, and, uh, you'll be a happier person. If you notice, couple weeks ago when I was in church, I saw, uh, uh, the guy that they were singing some songs, he had a guitar. He looked like he was euphoric. He was so happy. And I told my sister, I want him with that. Whatever is making him that happy, I want to and if you think about the people who have, uh, some kind of spiritual belief in their life, they're the people who have a twinkle in their eye. They're the people who have a a a lightness in the step, and the people who go the other round are the people that have stress. The people that serve a dark force, you're gonna be miserable. You're gonna be angry. You're gonna be if you got a a significant other, you're gonna be mad at that person. You're gonna have arguments. But when you have something positive in your life, you're gonna have a twinkle in your eye. You're gonna you're gonna feel a lightness of your spirit. So I will hope that they they would come to that realization and that awakening. Amen. Amen.

Omar: 1:07:25

Brother, thanks for that, man. And any any final words, maybe anything you wanted to share, maybe we didn't get a chance to touch on that you wanna share it before we close

David Ayala: 1:07:32

out? Well, I would just say that, you know, like I said, my cousin, Jimmy Soto, I hope you could do an interview with him. He could, uh, he could expound on the the judicial's, uh, process. It's the process there. There's there's a a lot more to talk about as far as that aspect of it or even, you know, the the the system coming through the appeal process and everything. But for me, you know, uh, I was subjected to severe isolation. It broke a lot of people. You know, I'm still struggling with, uh, the aftereffects of that, but, uh, you know, I have my faith and and that strengthens me. And then, uh, I would just hope that the listeners, you know, like, uh, they know I I anybody who knows me, they know I'm not a phony person. I'm not a fake person. I'm not a hypocrite. Uh, people I say what I feel. You know? At 1 once upon a time, you know, like, uh, I wouldn't I wouldn't open up so freely, but I feel like my purpose of my freedom was granted for a purpose. I think that was, uh, 1 of the purpose. So if you don't mind, Omar, I'd like to say, uh, a little prayer Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, man. Go ahead. For listeners. And, uh, I would like to say this prayer to anybody who's listening, uh, please, uh, Jesus, open their ears so they could hear and consider my words. Consider my experience. Consider my experiences as something that was unfortunate, but some good could come out of it because this is not random. So, um, calling upon the Holy Spirit to touch the the hearts and the minds of people who are wavering in their purpose in life, and and let them find a better path. 1 that's gonna give them happiness and joy and and and be a positive force in this world and and help some some somebody else. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen. Amen. Amen. Man,

Omar: 1:09:16

that thanks. Thanks, brother, man. I'm glad we cross roads, and I'm I'm glad you were able to come down here, man, uh, share your story. And if you ever wanna do a part 2 or there's something else you like, man, hey. I wanna share this part of my story, man. Definitely, we would love love to have you back, man. Thank you, brother. But but thanks for being here. And with that, we're gonna get ready to to wrap up. Oh, man. I I just wanna thank my guest for being here. Uh, Matthew 4 16 reads, the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light. And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death, light has dawned. Alongside David Ayala I'm Omar Calvillo, We are Wrong To Strong.